The positive birth company don't believe that pregnancy and birth should be woman centered.

[JustcameoutGC]

Just thought you might like to know, in case you are deciding on where to go for education and support during your pregnancy

@PanamaPattie

How can it be considered “hateful” if I believe women give birth? Am I so out of touch? Should a midwife - defined as being “with woman” now refer to themselves as midperson?

No one has said it’s hateful to say women give birth. The PBC believe that women give birth, and so do non binary people and trans men. Saying women and birthing people does not take anything away from you.

I am a woman, I gave birth. I also know someone who considers themselves non binary who has given birth. It takes nothing away from me to include them in the conversation.

Saying women and birthing people does not take anything away from you

That’s true, but saying “birthing is not a woman centred event” does.

I believe strongly that the overwhelming factor in the oppression of women is being of the class that gestates (if you disagree, I would be interested to know why). Therefore to sever the nexus between being a woman and being pregnant is actively harmful in trying to fight against the oppression we face. Taking the core issue in our oppression out of feminism because “it doesn’t just affect women” is incredibly harmful, and offensive.

Trans and non binary people who get pregnant know they are using their female reproductive systems to do so.

Of course, trans and non-binary people deserve respect, and using birthing person or dad or whatever that person chooses is essential for that person’s dignity. I would never misgender anyone. We can give these people respect, and still recognise that is 100% female people and overwhelmingly people happy to be called women who give birth.

Pregnancy, giving birth etc are women’s issues, they are feminist issues and women have a right to say so. That is not mutually exclusive with also using the additive language PBC now suggest. But saying “birthing is not a woman centred event” - nah, sorry they can fuck off with that.

But why it is only language relating to women which is being changed to be inclusive?

As an example, there's an advert on the TV at the moment for erectile dysfunction pills, sold by a company called Numan. The small print at the bottom of the advert states 'for the treatment of erectile dysfunction in men'. There's no mention of non binary, transwomen etc. Only men are mentioned. Is there outcry about men's services and products not being inclusive? No.

It could be, as a pp has mentioned, that it because men are seen as the 'default' but could also be because companies are well aware that men would not buy into this change of language. Women are socialised to 'be kind' and not make a fuss and don't outright laugh at it like I suspect men would.

You’re bang on there waitwhat

@Shortmamashortcycles

We don’t need to include every group ever when the scenario doesn’t actually apply to them.

But... it does apply to them? Isn't that the point?

Well it does apply to SOME is the point. I don’t know why they can’t do a load of marketing squarely aimed at women to give us the warm and fuzzies then do some nice case studies on trans men and non binary people.

At the moment lumping everyone in together makes everyone feel not very special or targeted

@MarshmallowSwede

Only women give birth period. No matter what someone calls themselves. Women give birth. Your identity and how you dress isn’t going to stop you from being a woman. If you’re pregnant and giving birth it’s obvious what you are.

What does all this virtue signaling actually do? Is it helping anyone? Women are still dying in childbirth but words and pandering are the priority?

Yes! This is precisely it. All this dancing around for what? The fact is that women are the only people who give birth.

I think the additional images that Mousetown shared are a reasonable compromise of inclusive language. The Twitter post doesn't seem to quite reflect that, but if you take all the messages together they are ok?
The physical reality of birth is the same regardless of your identity.

@Scirocco

I think they're just trying to be inclusive. The wording is a bit clumsy but I don't think there's any malice to it. Being supportive of minorities and marginalised groups doesn't have to mean diminishing or excluding others.

Except it does exclude others. In this case EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE TARGET DEMOGRAPHIC, IE WOMEN.

When did anyone say trans people don’t deserve proper medical treatment? I love how people like to act like we are asking for them to be harmed when that’s not the case.

You’re trying to gaslight us by trying to make those of us who are critical of this out to be some sort of people who want trans people to be hurt. Nice try. But not going to work..

Why is it always other women willing to throw actual women under this?

And stop equating women of colour (minority women) in with trans. Women of colour consider this offensive and racist to throw them in whoever the pro trans group want to argue for their ideaology. Minority groups of women are biological women. Why you feel the need to include them in your argument for pro trans is beyond me.

Also please explain to me how if you feel like a man why you would do the most feminine thing ever by giving birth. Do men feel like being pregnant and birthing babies often?

See that’s the thing with all of this. It just makes no sense. So men give birth. I just don’t buy this nonsense.. how if you feel
Like a man can you also reconcile doing something so womanly and female with your supposed hated and dreaded lady parts?

It makes no sense. And we are then supposed to change language to be “inclusive” around birth when only women, females give birth? Do you see how this madness is out of hand?

Saying " ‘birth is not woman-centred" when it's already really bloody difficult to get support for pregnancy and childbirth health problems & injurites or justice for medical abuse that happen during pregnancy or childbirth... like many are already made to feel that those involved in their births didn't centre them or their needs, that no one cared.

A 'positive birth company' should have recognized the impact of that kind of negative language over their intent to use more inclusive language for trans people. Their explanation doesn't really change or address that, it's about their adding terms, it doesn't explain why they felt the need to say birth isn't woman centred in a way that it's their view/goal of it rather than the issue it too often is.

I think the danger is that they say it is additive, but actually (and this isn’t directly them) why do we see so much comms now excluding the word women? It’s a slippery slope.

I refuse to accept "birthing person" as a name. It's a very passive label limited to an action.

We know women give birth. We know women get pregnant. We know that the impacts and implications resulting from pregnancy, miscarriage, labour and childbirth affect women for much longer than the action of birthing a baby.

So it very much is woman centred.

And for people who say "oh I don't mind using non sex specific language for this STUFF, it's more inclusive" you don't get to sell out an entire sex just to be nice. You don't get to tell others they are transphobes over this. Because it's not about hating trans people, it's about making sure the sex based care and issues are kept correctly labelled and termed so that we know what issues and care exist and can be taken care of.

I generally dislike companies like the Positive Birth Company anyway due to their completely unrealistic ideals of birth. You cannot positive think your way into the perfect birth. I have friends who were very badly affected by their labours and births because they thought affirmations would see them through and refused to consider going to a hospital for labour until they had to be blue lighted there due to the baby being in serious and prolonged distress. They had been told that they could manifest the birth they wanted. It was horseshit. They felt they had failed by having an epidural and stitches. Others felt they had failed by having a c section because it wasn't what they had planned.

So not only are companies selling the idea that you can deep breath and wish for the perfect birth, but that it isn't actually a woman's event, it's not centred around a woman.

Nope. Nope. It's literally a specific biological function of a woman. Doesn't matter how you dress or what pronouns you use or what surgery you have. Biologically if you can get pregnant you are a woman.

Minority groups of women are biological women. Why you feel the need to include them in your argument for pro trans is beyond me.

It's plain racism AFAIC

Saying " ‘birth is not woman-centred" when it's already really bloody difficult to get support for pregnancy and childbirth health problems & injurites or justice for medical abuse that happen during pregnancy or childbirth... like many are already made to feel that those involved in their births didn't centre them or their needs, that no one cared.

A 'positive birth company' should have recognized the impact of that kind of negative language over their intent to use more inclusive language for trans people. Their explanation doesn't really change or address that, it's about their adding terms, it doesn't explain why they felt the need to say birth isn't woman centred in a way that it's their view/goal of it rather than the issue it too often is.

I totally agree. ‘Woman-centred care’ is supposed to be a key principle in maternity and obstetric care - it’s promoted by the RCM, NICE and the WHO amongst others. And all too often it’s not provided, as you say. But woman-centred care is necessary because it’s a woman-centred event.

Frankly, PBC are showing themselves up as the quacks they are for failing to recognise that.

And I know they probably didn’t actually mean that a woman shouldn’t be centred in her care before, during and after birth - but as we keep being told, language matters, doesn’t it?

@ScreamingBeans

And did you also notice that whenever they try to push their ideaology they always, always find a way to mention women of colour. I just don’t see how they think this is ok to do. We need to make bingo cards and make this a square because it never fails for them to mention biological women of colour in their argument.

Once it was a bunch of men (mostly white European men from privileged countries, and white American men in dresses) saying they were more oppressed than women of colour then I knew this was nonsense.

And that other women are so quick to throw biological women out as an argument for this nonsense makes me sick. I am tired of it and I’m not a minority woman. I just don’t appreciate them doing this to biological women so that we protect the precious feelings of people who are willing to gaslight and take away the rights of women and girls.

I used PBC for a Hypnobirthing course when I was pregnant with my now 4 month old, and followed them on Instagram. However I recently unfollowed due to their posts stating that not all pregnant people are women and so on.

Can someone please explain to me how the pro trans ideaology is any different from Men’s Rights Activism?

I legitimately would like to know what the difference is.

And also please explain to me how if you’re giving birth that you can possibly still think we are supposed to be line you’re a man? I would genuinely like to know this.

I have never ever heard any man say they want to be pregnant and would like to birth an actual child.

Also please explain to me how this dysphoria works. How is it that they can hate their female parts so much and yet feel comfortable using these parts to be pregnant and give birth? Does the dysphoria just go away during the pregnancy?

I really need to know because I’m just not buying into “birthing person”. It’s woman,
Mother.

And I’m not taking advice about biology or giving birth from people who don’t understand it’s women that give birth.

If anyone can help my tiny lady brains figure out these things I would thank you.

ApplePie86
I started following them on Instagram after hearing how amazing they were. I had to unfollow them after seeing being all they advertise is minority people and their stories. Can't remember seeing a straight couple at all. All seemed to be very unique circumstances. Nothing against these people at all but given 90-95% of clients will surely be your average straight couple I found I couldn't really relate to any of their content.
What does “advertising minority people” even mean

The fact you unfollowed them for using non heterosexual couples is just plain bigotry. You know lots of lesbian parents use this forum don’t you? There is space for everyone.

Mousetown

Not bigotry at all. I was clear when I said "all they advertise is...". I couldn't care less if they used a wide range of people which included what the majority of people are but they don't. In fact after a quick scroll through I couldn't see one of your average pregnant woman or couple at all. We have a morbidly obese woman, what appears to be almost all black or Asian people and various same sex people.

Would it have been so difficult to appeal to what the majority of people are? A straight white couple?

There is indeed space for everyone but they are actively excluding the MAJORITY.

I couldn't care less if they want to advertise gay/lesbian/whatever else but actually don't exclude what most people are and want to be recognized for.

It's not about inclusivity of trans men/non binary female people. It's about decoupling the word woman from the concept of female biology (so that men can identify as women).

That's why the word man isn't changed (e.g. to ejaculator/ prostrate haver) - transwomen do not want to be included within the concept of male biology.

Of course females no matter how they identify are always reduced to their female biology hence why whenever you see trans men representation its usually due to them having periods/giving birth etc, not because they are genuinely recognised as being men.

It's the whole you can identify into an oppressed class but you can't identify out of it.

*We have a morbidly obese woman, what appears to be almost all black or Asian people and various same sex people.

Would it have been so difficult to appeal to what the majority of people are? A straight white couple*

So not only homophobic, but racist and fat phobic as well. It’s like bigot bingo in here. I bet you are one of this people that write angry letters to Sainsbury’s when they included a black family in a Christmas advert because it doesn’t represent the white majority.

@ApplePie86

ApplePie86 I started following them on Instagram after hearing how amazing they were. I had to unfollow them after seeing being all they advertise is minority people and their stories. Can't remember seeing a straight couple at all. All seemed to be very unique circumstances. Nothing against these people at all but given 90-95% of clients will surely be your average straight couple I found I couldn't really relate to any of their content. What does “advertising minority people” even mean

The fact you unfollowed them for using non heterosexual couples is just plain bigotry. You know lots of lesbian parents use this forum don’t you? There is space for everyone.

Mousetown

Not bigotry at all. I was clear when I said "all they advertise is...". I couldn't care less if they used a wide range of people which included what the majority of people are but they don't. In fact after a quick scroll through I couldn't see one of your average pregnant woman or couple at all. We have a morbidly obese woman, what appears to be almost all black or Asian people and various same sex people.

Would it have been so difficult to appeal to what the majority of people are? A straight white couple?

There is indeed space for everyone but they are actively excluding the MAJORITY.

I couldn't care less if they want to advertise gay/lesbian/whatever else but actually don't exclude what most people are and want to be recognized for.

As you can see, they use a nice variety of different people here, including white women.

@Goopamz you make a good point about the decoupling of woman from female biology so that "woman" can become an umbrella for anyone who identifies such, rather than being intrinsically linked to a person's sex.

Sex is not interchangeable or something you identify with. It is fact.

I grow increasingly uncomfortable in the ways women are dictated to over our language. Use Cis, it's kind and inclusive. You are a birthing parent, it's inclusive. The growth of "not all..." all of this reduces biology and experience down to "yeah, but..." and whilst it's not erasing woman and women, it is glossing over what a female biology is and how our lives are impacted and shaped by what is going on inside us. No amount of kindness should ignore that. And no amount of gender feel can identify you into that.

I cannot identify as a trans woman. I have not had the experience of being born and living with a penis and male biology and then transitioning to live as a female identified person. So I cannot say I am the same as a trans woman or demand the label is changed to include me to be kind.

In terms of birth, if someone is pregnant and chooses to give birth then they must acknowledge the biological reality they find themselves in. Passive "birthing parent" terminology helps nobody. It's not a kindness, it muddied the factual waters.

I am a woman, I gave birth. I also know someone who considers themselves non binary who has given birth. It takes nothing away from me to include them in the conversation.

I bet they're an adult human female. I bet they're not the sort of non-binary person that was 'assigned' male at birth.

This thread is immensely disappointing. Casual bigotry aside, I would really urge the majority of you do just do some research around the MANY examples of non-female identifying humans that have gone on to become pregnant and have children. Their stories are heartbreaking. I can’t even imagine the kind of discrimination that some of these individuals faced throughout their pregnancy.

The whataboutism around products and services aimed at men doesn’t prove the point you think it does, rather highlights that we still have a long way to go as a society to break down these often damaging gender norms. The point is that these products should also be taking steps towards being more inclusive.

I for one feel extremely happy as a pregnant human to see inclusivity from companies in this space for my fellow pregnant humans.

@glasspaw

Happy for you! Let’s be happy for all the pregnant animals..all of who are female because only females of any species can get pregnant. Unless you are a seahorse!

So since you pointed out bigotry I sincerely hope you’re including the part where the pro trans keep dragging women of colour into their antics! Don’t try to shame GC women when your pro trans humans are using women of colour as human shields to further your men’s rights activism.

As one pregnant woman to another. Have a safe and healthy pregnancy.