Fed is Best!!!!!!

[HotDawg123]

If you choose to breast feed - good for you
If you choose to bottle feed - good for you
But if you choose to be a breast feeding warrior and look at those who choose to bottle feed as scum then I hope you slip in dog shit tomorrow.

The amount of horrible women I've come across who are like this is too many now. And as I am heavily pregnant and have hormone rage it is really pissing me off.

Thank you for listening.

Amy, you quoted me and I'm replying! not the other way round, so I'm not picking on you! That's an inversion!

And to me it is self preservation rather than misinformation
What about my example?
I absolutely understand why she wanted to stop, I also understand her desire to not own that choice, HOWEVER, in the context of BFing group, do you really think she should be allowed to continue to come AND never be corrected as she loudly told new members week after week that she "had" to give up because she could only feed from one side? because that's what's being advocated on this thread, "feeding" groups taking over "breastfeeding" groups where nobody's missinformation is challenged.

Un-corrected, many members who heard this may have worried unnecesarily if one side felt fuller, or may have even been convinced that they had to give up when they didn't want to because you "Can't" feed from one side.

I'ld have been happy for her to continue to come (which she actually did for a while) but not to let her misinformation go unchallenged for the benefit of the rest of the group

Tinsel Unfortunately it has been made clear to me that my support, input and feedback was not welcome by the breastfeeding support groups that I spoke to (I was more diplomatic there than I have been on here of course) as I wasn't able to feed my baby and therefore apparently can't contribute. The last time I went there I was still combination feeding, although mostly FF by then and was told that "this is a support group for breastfeeding mothers..." when I asked to see a lactation consultant that had spoken to me the week before.

I also had PND following the arrival of DC1, in no small part due to the fact that I felt like a failure for not being able to feed and the constant messages of 'lactation failure is very rare' and 'just keep trying' placed the blame for this lack of success squarely on me. As I am sure you know if you have either had PND yourself or known a woman who has, it is very difficult to do much more than look after your baby when you are ill like this, so I wasn't able to push any further to see if there is more I could do to help anyone at that point.

I do support new mothers as much as I can in my community - whether they BF or FF.

Nanny that was done with bells on! She had full support to stop, but she wanted to continue to come to the group and talk loudly about how she "had to" use formula because you "Can't" feed from just one side.

She was angry if this was corrected. (she was initially told her options and supported quietly)

Heres the problem if she was never corrected on front of the group when she continued saying it after being told 1:1: Lots of women come to group to learn by listening. I did! Lots don't feel confident speaking about themselves but get great benefit by learning by listening about other people's questions and answers.

So if she's allowed to continue to say how you "Can't feed from just one side" loudly,, in group, people listening will believe that, expecially if no other POV is presented. And when they themselves come to feeling one side's supply is lower, or one side feels fuller, or even if one side dries up, what's going to happen? they're not necessarily going to come back for a 1:1 themselves.

And thank you Amy for your support.

Nanny if I was put in that position myself I'd feel extremely ashamed and embarrassed and probably wouldn't go back again.

The majority of the mothers I've seen have done brilliantly with bf. I've seen a small number who really can't for what ever reasons. Some who think they can't but can.

The definition of 'can't' varies. For me can't is 'I can't bf, my nipples are inverted, they won't come out and I have no milk.' Others would say 'I can't do it because it's driving me insane with worry.' Not the milk supply or a medical reason but both to me are valid reasons for stopping.

I can't see a mother sick with worry, if she wants to stop then she wants to stop.

I see people in their own homes also not in groups so I don't have to correct anything anywhere. Most I've seen that stopped for various reasons have also told the truth about why they couldn't carry on.

I'm not pushy and don't intend to change my view point which is maybe why I've had so many ladies referred to me over the last 7 years.

Whilst feeding my dd I did a bf demo at the hospital for an antenatal class. It was odd but a great experience. There were 30 ladies there, all undecided on feeding choices. The mw in charge explained my dd's medical condition (reflux) and tongue tie. Explained the latch difficulties and how rare the ties are and let me latch my daughter on (several times) to demonstrate to the ladies how easy it was even with the tongue tie, which most babies aren't born with! 25 ladies left wanting to breastfeed. I took my bf cover so I could show how discreetly you could feed. Sometimes that makes all the difference too.

If anyone ever gets the opportunity to do this, do it it's great.

Luna no probs! Hope you have a happy and healthy pregnancy 😊

Mumsnet is similar to group in that there are more listeners than posters/speakers.

If posts about reasons why people "couldn't" breastfeed never present any pushy unsupportive problem solving suggestions, then the knock-on affects many more people's breastfeeding experiences than just the OPs.

It's slammed down as nasty to say that the vast majority of women could breastfeed with the correct information/education

It's no unsymathetic to those who had enough of problem solving, or had just had enough, or who didn't get the right information early enough to turn it around to say so!

No but there are ways of wording things so you don't shoot people down for having their own opinions. Whether they've heard them on mumsnet or elsewhere!

I had all the right info in leaflets, support from my hcp. I never needed any convincing as I'd made up my mind way before that subject came up but that wasn't because of any info given to me. That was my choice.
I had a lot of unsupportive comments made, but it didn't stop me from bf.

No one in my family had ever bf either. All ff inc myself.

For me I can see pros and cons to both feeding choices. This is what a mother needs to be given information on. I think most are aware of the benefits of bf, which I convey myself during sessions with bf mothers.

I was 21 when I had my dd1 bf for 1 year. 23 with dd2 breastfed for 1 year.

After perfecting my awkward latch, bf is an absolute breeze! So much easier than ff, no sterilising etc. I loved it but it doesn't mean to say that everyone will.

Unfortunately, what ever info is given. Things won't change. That is a fact

I think most are aware of the benefits of bf
There are still a LOT of myths and misconceptions (including some on this thread) around feeding, so I disagree fundamentally on that. A basic "how to" leavelet in no way covers the problems solving you can learn about IF its not forbidden to challenge the idea that lots of women "Can'"t breastfeed.

Why do you think rates can't change? Feeding rates have and do change when prevalent myths are busted

The standard leavlets also usually give no information about the benefits of extended feeding.

And when even many doctors and other HCPs aren't aware of them, how can it be argued that "everyone knows already"?

I haven't read the full thread as I find it too upsetting. I wasn't able to breastfeed. After a very traumatic emergency c-section my milk didn't come in. I bought a pump but could only manage to produce a tiny amount per day (literally just covering the bottom of a bottle).

I went to group breast feeding sessions, desperate for help. I had 1-1 sessions. My baby was hungry. I had no milk.

I had to use formula. I had to feed my baby. My baby drank the tiny amount of breast milk I could provide each day but it didn't even amount to 1/2 a feed.

To add insult to injury my c-section scar became horrendously infected. I tried anti-biotics that wouldn't effect my breast milk for a week. The infection got worse. I had to take stronger anti-biotics to get on top of the infection and couldn't give my baby even the trickle I produced.

I continued to pump for 6 weeks and throw away in a desperate attempt to keep my milk coming through until the anti-biotics were finished. To no avail. The trickle dried up.

And that was it. My baby had to be formula fed.

I have no idea how many women can't breastfeed. But I was one of them. And it was a devastating experience. Being judged for FF was just as a devastating.

Bf myths? Enlighten me?

They change yes but not so much as to call it a successful rate. Media is the biggest culprit! Bloody Nigel Farage and his stance on bf really grinds me.

Media portray breasts for sexual purposes and a lot of people find breastfeeding disgusting because of it. One of my ladies was called a peado which I find disgraceful! Now that is one view that really needs to change. If that changed and bf was normalised again then I think more people would take this choice first over ff.

Itstoo so sorry you had a tough time! You tried your hardest and you should be proud of that. Your baby is healthy and happy that is all that counts.

Never feel wrong or guilty for doing the best for your child xx

Pumping is horrible! it's almost like the worst of both worlds for the mum, without the benefits of either breastfeeding OR formula, I absolutely applaud anyone who perseveres with pumping for even a short time!

However, few women who need to pump either permanantly or temporarily are offered hospital grade double pumps. And IMO that WILL account for a significant amount of women who "Can't" that with better services, "could".

Saying that many of them physically "could" have preserved their supply with fast, easy access to better equipment is not in any way saying that those whose milk dried up didn't try their utmost best.

This is the problem with not being allowed to challenge the idea that lots of women end up feeling they "couldn't" feed, when in different circumstances, they could. It means that we don't get to combine forces and demand for example better pump-loan libraries services from our primary care providers. Because it's mean to say "well, maybe some women who think they couldn't, could have if that service was readily available". It wouldn't work for all, but its not mean to say it might have changed things for some who are left feeling they couldn't feed.

Also, as I said before, formula is not the only alternative to breastfeeding, that's not to say that everyone has to chose donor milk, but the CHOICE is just not presented in many cases.

My home pump wasn't cheap, it was an electric medella, but I also used a hospital pump and it was worlds apart! WORLDS apart!

I really struggled to express from my expensive "good" home pump compaired to the hospital one.

Tinsel, having a good pump is a massive help I agree. I had a medela and found that successful but my milk really flowed far too fast.
Poor dd would be overwhelmed when it let down. I say to my ladies to invest in a good pump. It can really benefit the milk supply.

I do think other options should be given. If latch is a problem but you can pump well, then bottle feed breast milk. Donated milk in are area is lacking, not really an option here unfortunately. I donated my excess milk to the neonatal unit. These are all options I give to my mothers who are struggling. At the minute though both of my ladies are fab. One lady struggled with soreness in the first week that's not been rectified with some nipple cream and revision on her latch.

*now autocorrect!

Tinsel you seemed to imply upthread that if no one breastfed there would be no mat leave?

What?

In France they breastfeed less than we do and they have far more epidurals (but lower c section rates & instrumental deliveries) and their perinatal mortality, child mortality and maternal mortality are all lower, and they have better mat leave!!

I also find it interesting that we are all seeming to agree that BF has great benefits. It's obviously great for those who want to do it (I do), but the population effects lead to some bizarre conclusions.

For example the WHO bemoaning low breastfeeding rates in Europe - lowest in the world. But in terms of life expectancy, education and perinatal & infant mortality, Europe far outperforms other regions with much higher breastfeeding. How much would we reduce neonatal and infant mortality with EBF for 6 months vs. investing the same time in early mental health intervention/generally better postnatal support/early years centres?

The marginal gains for promoting EBF are really small in the developed world. That's not to say we should let formula companies loose, EBF is a) cheaper and b) much less faff. So I think helping all mums to breastfeed is still the way to go, but I don't understand the huge energy that goes into it that could be better directed elsewhere.

Tinsel you seemed to imply upthread that if no one breastfed there would be no mat leave?

No I didn't.

Lots of posters are being nasty about people who care about any thing to do with feeding any babies but their own. Without people who care passionately about issues that affect other / all women and children, we'ld be fucked, basically!

Tinsel - I suppose the question I would put to you is - given countries which higher FF rates have better neonatal mortality & infant mortality than we do, are you focusing in the right place to improve the health of babies?

And there is some evidence that the BFHI has led to around 500 excess neonatal deaths in Europe alone, potentially meaning we are focusing in the wrong place entirely on trying to improve BF rates and on improving babies' health.

The studies, for those who are interested:

citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.782.8367&rep=rep1&type=pdf

jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/article-abstract/2546142

And their reply to those who rejected their initial analysis:
jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/article-abstract/2599004

I think Tinsel's last post was about me. Here we go:

I am not criticising everyone who tries to help promote or support BF. I am criticising those who promote BF over and above the health of the mother and the baby. I suggested that it would be nice to see a more holistic approach.

Again, well done to those who offer their time. However, offering your time doesn't make you a saint and definitely doesn't mean that what you are doing shouldn't be examined critically.

those who promote BF over and above the health of the mother and the baby.

No one does that. You are creating a straw man.

I think we've established, based on some on the responses on here and real life experience, that some do. Putting your fingers in your ears and saying it doesn't happen is silly and unhelpful.