Brie? Bubbly? Sushi? Help

[Gennz]

Hi everyone. I have just found out I'm expecting my first baby on 1 December. I'm a total over-planner and read a lot of books & medical studies on everything before we got the BFP, but with food I'm still quite confused ... the advice is all over the show.

I read Expecting Better which I found really helpful, and that, coupled with my own research means I'm comfortable with my usual one coffee a day (under 200mgs of caffeine) and 1- 2 units of alcohol a week in the first trimester (as a limit, not a target). I was a bit of a social smoker but I've knocked that on the head entirely.

The food thing, though, is really confusing me. No unpasturised cheese - well that's fine, all cheese where I am (NZ) is pasteurised. But then official information re soft pasteurised cheese (like brie, blue, camembert) is to only eat piping hot. Why?

I prefer my meat basically mooing in a paddock so well done meat will be a real struggle for me (but one I can live with if it's a real risk). But does the same apply to raw fish? I eat salmon sashimi at least twice a week from a good place, it's made fresh in front of us, been eating there for 4 years and never any problems. It seems like I can probably keep eating it? Some stuff says not to and some says it's fine.

I'm happy to go without various things if there's a good reason and a real risk but it seems like if I followed all the advice to the letter I'd be on dry crackers and not much else...

Coming late to the tee total party, but just to say I find all the guidance very frustrating too. At least the NHS guidelines are mainly rooted in some kind of reasonable evidence base and often use phrasing "women at choose not to" rather than an incredibly didactic "you must not" approach with less obviously doubtful food stuffs.

I am alway amazed by the number of threads on various forums with pregnant women feeling concerned that they are marscapone or ricotta - or other equally innocuous food such as hummus. Why does the media/American baby apps feel the need to cause so much panic and guilt based on limited evidence?

Quick question, what are your views on rilettes? I'll go with no pâté with liver in given vitamin A risk factor, but struggle to see how all other forms along these lines are out too. If mushroom pâté is to be avoided (component parts of mushrooms, cream cheese and a bit of garlic) - logically hat else should be out??

I'm guessing the guidelines against non- liver pate are due to the general method of whizzing up ingredients - same reason that in general eating a rare steak is less likely to give food poisoning than a rare burger made from the same steak.
Tbh I love making my own chicken liver pate and that is totally going to happen at some point in this pregnancy. Good quality livers, made into pate and eaten while still hot with no time for anything to grow. Yum. My mouth is watering already.

Petitpont I was told by MW if I made mushroom pate myself then ate it that day = all good. i agree with moggle it's like why mince is risker to eat raw than steak or a beef joint.

Isn't liver pate 'on the list' due to it containing too much vitamin A rather than because it's a food poisoning risk? Or is it both?!

For those living in London, You Me Sushi has a section on their website saying all their sushi is safe to eat in pregnancy (and therefore presumably frozen first). Happy days!

I believe all pates are a listeria risk, liver pates are additionally because of vitamin A. If you make a mushroom pate at home yourself you can be more sure it isn't going to be harbouring listeria.

Baking yes, we were talking about veggie pates. Liver pates/liver = not at all.

I don't think there was a huge epidemic of damaged babies born in the days when women were advised to eat liver during pregnancy in order to keep up their iron levels, so not at all for anything to do with liver is, imo, a bit OTT.

squizita about the stress in preg being bullcrap ... can I ask more about that? Because one of the things Ive been told by a pretty good gyne here is that excessive stress is a bad idea for the baby. Think she mentioned cortisol but I may well be mistaken there.

She's very good and up to date on other things (eg meds for treatment of Hyperemesis Gravidarum, and believe me other gynes are still literally of the view that you can't take any meds in preg no matter if you've only had 2 mugs of water all day for 4 days). She also lets you know the pros and cons of various options in preg eg pain relief. Given ehr balanced approach I'm inclined to assume that if she thinks severe stress is a bad idea, she has grounds for thinking that. If that's not the case, I'd be interested to hear more please

Lesley Regan's writing is pretty damning of it - as is everything I've read on post-loss pregnancy. Constant low level stress and worry are the norm for such pregnancies and are not a factor. Google Regan: she is literally world class and writes the stuff the up to date gynies read. In the UK meds for hyperemesis are so normal you can get them from your GP - in part due to research at Imperial college.

Perinatal psychologists are also damning of warning women about stress. All it does is create anxiety and stress (about anxiety and stress which is pretty hard to avoid when hormonal) starting a vicious cycle. Indeed repressing stress can contribute to PND.

Stress can affect conception and birth. It has no proven link to miscarriage or birth defects whatsoever according to most sources.

...that is not to say it isn't bloody awful for the woman concerned. But the excessive focus on "bad for the baby" again smacks of woman-as-incubator!
Stress, clinical anxiety and depression should be treated promptly in any woman if they become excessive. Not just when pregnant. If she is stressed enough to worry her caregivers, she was more likely than not stressed before her period was late. But no one noticed the cortisol "damaging" her before then ... Shed just be a whiny woman.

ok, my gyne was talking about extreme stress eg bereavement, severe illness type stress .. the kind of thing no one wants to happen at all and that has longer term bad effects on the body if the stress continues. Not the lower (though still very unpleasant) levels of stress you outlined. Sounds like different scales of stress to me.

I'll certainly google her.

Mind you only some doctors in the UK are up to date about HG meds :s some are still back in the Thalidomide, "jsut put up with it and tough if you loose your job/have to go for termination" mindset. But the NICE guidelines do thank heavens recommend a range of meds up to and including ondansetron ... I imagine the Imperial research is partially responsible for that. Ill check it out, thanks.

thinking about it, actually, telling a woman not to be afraid / stressed after a previous loss is really pretty pointless. As if you can just switch it on or off Not exactly realistic, is it.

Given that long term high-level stress hormones do seem to affect the body adversely in many cases, I could imagine that there's the possibility that a foetus could be affected by them, and so it's worth researching? Both -are- there any effects, and if so how best to reduce the stress hormones in a feasible manner (rather than the rather ineffective and even counterproducive method of saying 'don't worry it's bad for the baby') Just wondering aloud really ... all a bit off-topic by now =)

Meerka - repeat loss does bring similar levels of stress to bereavement and also PTSD like symptoms. I have CBT for mine.
Bereavement is mentioned in a lot of what I've read as an example as (a) it has no effect on outcomes and (b) telling a bereaved woman her baby is in danger will only make thinks worse.

I can believe that repeat loss does lead to those levels of stress and PTSD :(

Totally agree that the way some things are handled makes things way worse. Really do. Guess Im just wondering if there is any physiological basis for concern over the levels of stress hormones on the developing baby. Not, I emphasise, from the pov of believing it's either effective or kind to say 'don't worry, it'll only harm the baby if you do'. I hope it's clear that I don't think that !

Ooh I just did a first response 3 days before period due and it turns out I'm pregnant. Yay! Only started trying this month! So I will now be joining in the abstinence ...

I am really struggling emotionally on this pregnancy, and am prone to fits of weeping - proper, heaving sobbing.

I get so worried during them that it'll have a bad affect on the baby that I've pushed myself into a full blown panic attack a couple of times by trying to force myself to stop.

I wouldn't worry too much BookofRuth. I spent half my last pregnancy in tears (not normally a weepy type) and also a lot of time massively stressed about finishing my PhD (which I didn't get done before my baby arrived and the world didn't end!!) and I have a lovely, relaxed, easygoing little girl now. Pregnancy is hard work and all those crazy hormones don't help, so go easy on yourself. If you feel like crying, just cry!

You lucky thing mopsy! Am on my 3rd month trying here! Congrats

Thanks wilting, yeah I am so lucky I know. I am kind of half expecting a chemical pregnancy now. I feel like it has been too easy nearly, you know? Plus I have had a few drinks since we started trying, like not getting plastered but a couple here and there, just because I was so sure nothing would happen the first month. But I guess loads of people do that and it is fine.

If you ever get a BFP it is NOT a chemical pregnancy

That is when the egg fertilises but never settles/implants.

The only way a woman knows a chemical pregnancy is if she's had IVF. Otherwise it's a mystery.

Because... the cells MUST have implanted, sent out little branches and started triggering HCG and Progesterone IN ORDER to (24-48hr later indeed) trigger a pee pregnancy test.

:)

Oh I didn't know that Squitiza. Well fingers crossed it sticks anyway!

If it is instant coffee you drink then you can get away with two as each one has less than 100mg of caffiene. Real coffee (filter/esspresso-based) is stronger so just one if you like propper coffee. Remember there is caffiene in tea, cola and chocolate when calculating what you can have.

I would abstain from alcohol completely in the first trimester as that is when it does the most damage as the brain and central nervous system is developing. In the second and third trimester different studies have shown different results - some say no units some say 1-2, so it is up to you really.

In the UK all supermarket sushi is pre-frozen which kills anything in it, not sure about NZ. Restaurant sushi with raw fish on is a risk and not just because of the risk of food poisoning, there are illnesses that can affect the featus that wouldn't affect the mother (e.g. listeria, toxoplasmosis).

I'm guessing soft cheese is safe if it pasturised - here most soft cheeses aren't hence the advice to cook it if pregnant.

It is advised that you don't eat undercooked meat (rare steak for example) due to the risk of toxoplasmosis which can harm featuses. I'm not sure how big the risk is i.e. what percentage of meat carries toxoplasmosis. Also some people are already immune to it from exposure prior to pregnancy so it couldn't affect their babies but the only way to prove that is through a blood test to check for anti-bodies. I like my steak blue or rare so I've just given it up while I'm pregnant rather than settle for over-cooked (ruined) steak.

From that I can tell in studies it looks like alcohol is worse in second half of first trimester? In Expecting Better she says the speed at which you drinks matters - well obviously - as the by product of alcohol (acetate? or something) is processed first by your body and then only passed to foetus if there is some left over. So speed and food matters. She says "drink like a European adult, not a fresher on spring break." But I think this advice is more directed at second trimester.

I am away for work at the moment and have multiple lunches and drinks happening. I had one glass of wine yesterday which I eked out over an hour and a half of lunch, but I have another lunch today and I really don't feel comfortable with any more booze this week, given my glass of moet earlier in the week. (V annoying as booze is usually the only enjoyable aspect of lawyer's lunches.)

I've made the call that eggs aren't a huge risk - I'm trying to divide risks into listeria/toxomoplasis - to be avoided as can cross to foetus) or salmonella (use usual judgement about dodginess of food as is a food poisoning risk). Eggs seem to fall into latter category, would you guys agree?

Just had my first instance of pregnant food fussiness when I ordered ham & tomatoes on toast for breakfast at the hotel and it arrived as a great inch thick slab of ham steak on a plate with a tiny piece of toast next to it. Nearly vommed - had to send it back. I hate being high maintenance in restaurants!

Anyone know if camomile tea is ok? Bit addicted...

Mopsy fine as far as I know. MW suggested it as OK.