i heard on the radio today that the abortion deadline.....

[ShaysMummy]

was to be brought down sooner than 24 weeks. is it just me, or does anyone else feel this is long overdue?
I dont want anyone to rip into me or anything mind.
just wondered what your thoughts were?

KristinaM - good post, I echo entirely your comments re: raising children with special needs having seen downs syndrome and spina bifida in our own families and seen how difficult these conditions are to live with (or not, as sadly spina bifida infant died in infancy).

It simply isn't for everyone, and the comment further down about 'living with what life deals you' is ignorant in the extreme.

Pro-choice? You bet I am.

Well i guess i can see this issue from several angles...

I was conceived from a rape, and adopted into a home where my adoptive mum had 8 miscarriages trying for a baby of her own.

I got pregnant at 19 using condoms, and kept my daughter (now 15).

During my early adult life, I had a miscarriage, followed by an unwanted pregnancy where I had a termination (8 wks).

I later got pregnant again (using Cap) and had a miscarriage, only to discover it was twins. Had to have termination then due to medical condition (9wks).

At 35 years of age, Am now 20 weeks pregnant and keeping this baby even though I am on my own, as dad doesn't want to be involved.I am excited and happy with the pregnancy.

In a nutshell, I have experienced about as many sides of this particular coin as it is probably possible to do, and my feelings about it all are as follows:

I feel deep regret and often have nightmares about the terminations I had, but feel it would have been wrong for anyone else to pass a judgement on me or decide for me what to do in my particular situation. All situations are unique and none of us can say what we would or would not feel unless walking in their shoes.

As someone who was adopted following a rape, I am grateful my mum chose that route, but am not sure how I would act in the same situation. Unless any of you face that awful scenario, none of you will know either.Moral stances have a habit of evolving when personalised.

I agree that 24 weeks is a very late time to abort, and given how attached I am to my baby even now, it doesn't bear thinking about. However, it would be wrong for me to say that because I feel that way, every other woman should too.

Think this thread is a no win discussion. Personal ethics and morality varies from person to person, and as such, a concensus on what is right and wrong is rarely achieved.

Good luck to anyone who finds themselves in any of the situations I have been in, and good luck to those of you who have been fortunate enough never to have been.

xx

Wow kathryn wales - that's such an interesting post Thanks for sharing your experiences with you. I echo your views on personal values and ethics whilst at the same time I am firmly prochoice.
My brother who is less than a year younger than me (and who I love dearly) is Downs Syndrome and my earliest memory is going on an anit-abortion march with my parents (very strong catholics). However I support a woman's right to control her own body and would march to support it.

PotPourri - no-one views a 20 week feotus as a 'bundle of cells', or approaches termination at that stage casually. Isn't there a post further down the thread that says late terminations are v v rare?

Big difference between that and considering termination at the earliest stage possible, unless you have an absolute belief that termination is wrong.

I can understand and sympathise with people who hold that view. They do put the rights of the potential for life above ANY rights or choice of the mother. But once you start saying 'oh no, I don't agree with abortion EXCEPT for rape, or life-threatening disability, or wherever your personal moral threshold comes to rest, you are making highly subjective moral decisions which are fine as decisions insofar as they affect your own life, but ought not to translate into judgments against people with a different moral threshold.

I'm afraid I've not had time to read all the posts.

I don't think the deadline should be lowered. Amniocentesis is carried out at 17-18 weeks and need at least another 2 weeks for the results to come through. The anaomaly scan is also 20 weeks.

Lower the deadline and the window for termination narrows a lot.

This thread remins me of the time I had to debate this subject in english lang a-level, it was hard then, as it is now.
termination is always going to be a highly emotive subject, but I am completely pro-choice, I would add.
I dont think, anyone would ever wish to go back to the times when desperate women sought out back street abortionists and eneded up dying in agony as a result, however the act became outdated as it was introduced at atime when very little was still known about life "in utero", we now know so much more and babies are surviving that are being born at a time that they can be legally aborted, it is no surprise that the deadline could be reduced.
However, I think that they will have to take into account the possibility of people needing to terminate because they have discovered a severe abnormality(and i mean severe), when deciding whether or not to reduce the time limit.
As far as I know, most terminations are performed in the first 12 weeks, because apart from anything, its easier and less traumatic(if at all possible) for the women and late ones are usually only performed for reasons of abnormality.
ive held my own dying pre-viable baby in my arms and can honestly say that after doing that, i cannot condone late termination for purely social reasons, but i do believe that the abortion law is important, i would not like to see us go back to the days of illegal abortions.

this is a really tough one, imo late terminations should only be on medical grounds.
however, i used to know a girl who had not one, but TWO late stage abortions, when i asked her why she let it go so far, she said she just wanted to pretend it wasn;t happening.
not friends with her anymore.

that said, i certainly think that most women who undergo a termination, at whatever stage, have lifelong consequences psychologically. Sometimes i think abortion is portrayed as being a 'quick fix' to a problem and that is that.

when you read some of the literature especially from the US, on the ant-abortion lobby, some of their arguments are really very worrying and certainly would prevent me from wanting to change the laws on abortion.

but thats just my opinion.

kathrynwales,

that really is a story, i don't really know what else to say, other than i wish you all the best in your current pregnancy

hockeymum and others, you do realise that abortion is NOT available on demand in this country and a woman who wishes to abort must obtain two signatures before the abortion will be allowed to take place. If you have a real issue with late abortion then perhaps the docs who sign the forms should be the target for you rather than the women who request them.

k&f - Since 1 in 3 women have had or will have an abortion, I think your assumption that 'most' suffer psycholgically is probably innacurate.

I know people who have agonised, and whilst they have been sure they made the right decision, they still felt some regret that the whole thing happened, and many others who have no trouble at all. They knew what they wanted - not to be a mother - and got on with it. That doesn't mean they treated it as a matter of no concern or importance, or that they were irresponsible. Nor does psychological suffering imply that someone is somehow more 'deserving' or morally superior for having such guilt and sensitivity.

I'm not saying that my opinion matters more than anyone elses. I'm just trying to explain my opposition to abortion, on the grounds that IMO there are two lives involved, the mother's and the baby's, and I cannot accept that one person's life has to end in order to uphold the rights of the other.

The argument really hinges on when you believe that the foetus becomes a person deserving an inalienable right to life. To say it has to be 20 weeks because of the timing of scans/results seems to me incredibly crass. Surely it should be determined by the development of the foetus.

Would you oppose abortion if it was discovered that the foetus feels pain on being terminated?

where i live you only have one scan at 20 weeks major defects were picked up with the baby and it would have been born severely disabled i chose to terminate the pregnancy as i didnt want to have a baby that would i feel have no quality of life and need constant care what would happen if the child had lived to adulthood and we werent around to look after it who would have been responsible for it then. i dont regret my decision and have since gone on to have a perfectly healthy baby i was 22 weeks when i terminated my first pregnancy but in my mind it was the right decision and i was glad i had the choice

What I would love to know is the exact figures on this one. I know that most abortions are performed up to 12 weeks, and that very few are carried out after 20 weeks. But what consitutes 'very few'. In light of medical advances I find it very hard to accept a straight legal cut off date of 24 weeks. However I also am under the impression if there are severe medical reasons later terminations (after 24 weeks) can still be performed. So Chicagosmum's sister should not have just 1 week to make a descision IF tests prove there are medical reasons why her baby may not survive. Maybe I haven't understood teh law here.

Personally I would like to see a reduction in the limit to 20 weeks, if there are NO medical grounds. However IF like some people here on MN have who have found anomolies later than this, they should be able to request a termination at any date (as I believe the law is now)

My dd was born at 27 weeks which just 15 yrs ago was less than the legal limit for abortions, The 24 weeks was brought in due to medical advances. I think that this should be reviewed considering the advances in neo-natal care. BUT still allowing the later terminations for those poor women who have to make a terrible choice to terminate or not on medical grounds.

Abortion stats here for anyone interested www.statistics.gov.uk/statbase/Product.asp?vlnk=68

In 2000 78% were carried out before the 13th week and 10% between 13 and 19 weeks. In 2001 2777 abortions were after 20 weeks. For the majority of these the reason given was a risk to the health of the mother. This would include, for example, where the mother has cancer and has to choose between starting treatment immediately (with more chance of surviving) or delaying treatment and maybe dying. For about a quarter there are malformations of the baby.

Those who believe in the baby's life at any price are entitled to their view, if they have other children who might lose their mother they might change their mind. Personally I can still get tearful thinking about a choice I didn't have to make over disabilty - and I wholeheartedly agree that anyone who thinks it is wrong should try volunteering to help familes who have severely handicapped children.

I'm so glad you brought up statistics and a view which hasn't been thought about up to now Tatt. There's a whole lot more to this issue than one babies life. It isn't black and white and should never be viewed as such. A woman and her families right to choose the the course of their lives is the most important thing. I feel the law is there to protect everyone involved, including the baby and would be worried if the date was lowered as I feel the abuse of the system would be to stop lawful terminations rather than careless women doing it with out thinking. It's a decision I have made myself, it's not one taken lightly, but I truly believe it has made the life I have now possible, which I'm sure the baby I'm carrying now is greatful for.

Blu,

perhaps i didn't elaborate very well.
i don;t think that a woman is morally superior because she feels regret.

maybe i put it wrong by saying 'suffers psychologically' maybe I should have said something more like, have emotional consequences, all i am trying to say is that just because a woman has an abortion does not make her a heartless c*w. which is what some people seem to think

Haven't read it all- but abortion on grounds of severe disability can be performed up to birth (ie 40 odd weeks) or at least I always thought it could, so altering the 24 week deadline won't affect that.

yep thought so here we go "Currently the law says the deadline for an abortion is 24 weeks, unless tests indicate that the foetus may be impaired, in which case an abortion can be carried out right up to the due date."

So whatever they do with the 24 week deadline it will make no difference for termination due to abnormalies.

So all we are really talking about is reducing the limit for 'social' rather than medical reasons. As I would also put the mother's life being at risk as another reason why it could be performed late (eg the cancer analogy which was mentioned)

I would defineatly be in favour of reducing the limit to 20 weeks in cases of 'social' (I am trying to think of a better word) terminations, eg ones that are not being done on the grounds that mother or baby's life are at risk.

I know there are some who try to 'forget' they are pg, but the statitics show not many of these are performed beyond 20 weeks

K&F - oh, yes, I see. heartily agree with your v last comment, too. The latter half of my post was not really intended to be directly to you, but much along the same lines. We are making the same point.

Yes crunchie- I agree and cancer etc would count as an acceptable reason- although presumaby a mother in that situation would go for an induction to give her baby a chance (I've heard of babies being induced at say 32 weeks so treatment can be started).

Many disability activists want the limit to be the same as for social reasons- in that case there may be an argument against lowering the limit. Currently there isn't really a definition of a disability severe enough to warrant very late termination, it goes on personal opinion.

Agreed Fio. I remeber seeing an amazing website by a couple who had tried for about 8 years for a baby. They had got pregnant and it was discovered that the baby had trisomy 13. They decided to keep the child. She had a very short life (a few months), but was able to go home, wasn't in any pain and died naturally in her parents arms. That surely has to better for everyone (including the parents) than a termination at 39 weeks.

every case is different i would not have wanted to give birth to a child knowing it was going to die anyway and tbh if it meant having an abortion later than i did i would still have done it as for having my severely disabled child adopted what would happen if no one was willing to adopt it who would care for it then? certainly would not be happy for it to be taken into care so would end up having to look after the child which was not an option for me

i was anti abortion until i found myself in a position i wouldnt want to wish on my worst enemy unless you have been in the situation yourself no one has the right to judge anyone else and the decision they make actually no if someone has made a decision that difficult noone has the right to comment on it its a private and personal one and not something im sure many people can begin to understand