i heard on the radio today that the abortion deadline.....

[ShaysMummy]

was to be brought down sooner than 24 weeks. is it just me, or does anyone else feel this is long overdue?
I dont want anyone to rip into me or anything mind.
just wondered what your thoughts were?

they could give them up for adoption to a loving family who are desperate to have a baby but saddly can't.

No. It's not as simple as that. Many people desperate to have children do not want to adopt. Many would-be adoptive parents are not actually fitted for what's a very tough job. And I don't see that we should retreat to a time of unwanted pregnancies effectively providing baby-fodder.

if I am honest and if I choose to thin about it, I do find the notion of abortion fairly unthinkable, past a certain date (as do many people I am sure, including those who have had terminations for whatever reason)
but the alternatives are unspeakable too
can anyone really countenance forcing a woman who wants to terminate a pregnancy to continue with that pregnancy, go through labour and then have to give the child up?
what effect would that have on the mother, the child and anyone who had to witness such a barbaric situation and support the participants.
just beyond contemplation really

I lost 2 babies - one at 18 weeks and one at 19 weeks - I decided to see them when they were born and tbh I can't imagine abortion even at that stage - both babies had visible ears, eyes, mouth, tongue, nose, fingers, toes etc. - abortion should be done no later than 14-15 weeks imo - unless for medical reasons...

there was a programme on the tv once showing a 3d/4d scan of a 12 weeks old fetus and i don't think it should be allowed even at that stage. it should be up to 10 weeks imo.

well, there you go... i can't believe it was allowed until 24th week!!!

Taking into consideration that it is not until around week 16 that a blood test for chromosomal abnormalities is done and the results can take several weeks, then no, I think the 24 week deadline is about right.

I will stick my neck out here - I had an amnio done at 16 weeks. The results, thankfully, showed no chromosomal abnormalities. However, had they done so, I would have had a termniation and strongly believe that it would have been my right to make that choice. And that's what we are talking about here largely - choice, so that woman are not forced to continue with an unwanted pregnancy or seek back street abortions.

sorry i really don't agree with that although i know why you're saying it. i don't really want to say this but if your child at age 5 was 'normal' then hit by a car and left severlely ill and disabled then you would still love and care for that child, it's your flesh and blood at the end of the day so why doesn't the same apply for an unborn baby? children with disabilities are harder work but then it is still so worth all that work. when you get pg you know there is a risk of having a child with problems. also say the problems weren't detected in pregnancy? would you leave your child then? i know i'm going to get a lot of people against what i say but i've learnt that a child is a child no matter what.

Kreamcrackers - like I said, it's about choice. Whilst I admire your stance on raising a child with special needs, having seen the impact first-hand of downs syndrome and spina bifida, I have to say it simply isn't for everyone. Whilst medicine can detect these conditions in the womb, I say continue to give women the choices they deserve in their pregnancies. If that means a termination beyond 20 weeks due to testing/waiting for results, etc, then so be it. In an ideal world testing would be done much earlier but this isn't possible at present. Reducing the limit, as one poster suggests, to 10 weeks is too servere and the consequences of this could be tragic.

I agree kreamkrackers, it just seems that abortion is regarded by most people as a pregnant woman's right, but I don't see a difference between killing a child in the womb and killing a child after it's been born.

We react with such horror when we hear of babies being abandoned or left to die in plastic bags (see yesterday's news) but it is as though people have blinkers on when it comes to abortion.

Every baby that is born was once a foetus and under the law as it stands, was eligible for abortion. I cannot get my head around the fact that these helpless foetuses are routinely denied life in order to uphold the "rights" of the mother. It is a very high price to pay. Babies are not dispensible.

i agree 24 weeks is to late, i was a 27 week baby 30 odd years ago and im perfectly healthy however 10 weeks is too early i had an unplanned pregnancy which the first i knew about was 15 weeks and i know many other women who were pretty close to the 10 week mark when they found out i think a cut off date that early would lead women to make rash decisions which they could regret

i just dont know how women can do it as i was 22 weeks pg when i first felt my baba was kicking me and the bond kicked in between me and baba... these woman must be off their head!!!!

saadia it depends on when you see a baby as being human. At first it is a collection of cells with the potential to become a life. Many of those little bundles of cells don't come to term anyway. You may think they are already a life, others don't. Even when a foetus begining to develop limbs it doesn't have much of a brain. If I thought those cells had to have their life preserved I'd die - what could I eat? Do you eat meat - it has more life than a foetus?

But the thing is that with medical advances our view into the womb so to speak has been greatly improved and wasn't it shown recently that what we had previously thought to be very under-developed foetuses showed actual facial expressions. They move around, and I don't think we really know what they feel. And they are so beautiful.

I remember when I was pg with ds1 the thought did cross my mind that perhaps I should have the Downs test done, but then I thought that the first twelve weeks are so delicate in any pregnancy. If an embryo/foetus has somehow managed to grow and develop and nourish itself - struggle into life basically - and survive beyond the first three months against a lot of odds, so much can go wrong, then it is not up to me to intervene. I realised that whatever the outcome of the pregnancy, that is life and sometimes you just have to deal with whatever hand life deals you.

Unfortunately Saadia, some people cant 'deal with whatever hand life deals' them.

I, for example, would have ruined several peoples lives if I had been unable to make the choice I did.

beautiful - well possibly - but so is a tree or a plant. Do you eat them saadia? Do you eat meat, you didn't answer my question? Animals are more alive than that bundle of cells even if you can imagine expressions where its face will be.

I have a lot of respect for those who choose to bring up severely handicapped children. I know exactly what that can entail so I had a downs test with my last pregnancy and I'm very grateful that I never had to make a choice.

I do eat meat but I'm not sure how scientifically valid your comment about meat having more life than a foetus actually is. The foetus has potential for life and how does anyone know at what exact point it develops feelings or thoughts or "life". It is a gradual process which I belive begins at the point of conception. It has all it's genetic make-up at conception.

There have been cases of very premature babies with medical complications who have survived against all the odds. There have been cases of babies who survived for a few days. Even those few days IMO are worth having. Gordon Brown's first child sadly died very early, but he has nevertheless described her as an inspiration.

I too have respect for people who are bringing up handicapped children. And I am truly sympathetic towards people who find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy. I really didn't like being pregnant, and both my dss were wanted, so I can imagine how awful it would be to go through pregnancy and delivery with a child you didn't want, but I don't think anyone has the right to take the life of another.

People in this situation should be given support, counselling, financial help but to terminate nowadays is seen as such a routine thing.

Reading some of the earlier posts about where the termination didn't work and the baby had to be killed after delivery shocks me to my very core. That the rights of the mother can be held so high that the defencelss foetus, who has no-one looking out for its interests, is actually murdered is an absolute scandal.

Saadia - you are entitled to your opinion but your commenst are very provocative. I dont believe that most women havinga termination see it as "routine". Also bringing up a SN child can be very VERY difficult and not everyone can cope. If you dont believe this I suggest that you spend some time volunteering with profoundly SN kids and you will see how hard it is. Then mutiply that by 23x7. Add in other kids, a job, family etc

Then perhaps you will find it easier to understand. Its not just about not enjoying being pregnant. Its having to devote your whole life to that one child, for perhaps the rest of your life.And sacrificing your other kids, marriage, perhaps giving up your job or your home. Many marriages fall apart.

saadia, I had support and counselling (didnt need financial help), but it still didnt make it all OK.

Women have used abortive techniques for centuries and centuries. Pennyroyal, and other herbal stuff, etc. In other times, a baby was not considered to have a 'soul' unitl it 'quickened' - i.e was felt to move.

And Biglips - yes, I DID feel out of my mind - out of my mond with distress and worry when my 20 week scan showed up all sorts of things and they spoke to me about a range of non-viable trisomies. It felt inbearable to me to think about termination for a baby i had felyt move, but unbearable to carry on if the child would die or live with no mental, sensory or physical capacity. Just don't be so sure you can judge extreme situations if you haven't been in it. many people make decisions and feel things which surprise them once they are in a situation of that kind.

I was lucky - further tests were clear. i can't tell you what i would actually have done if they hadn't been, because I don't know.

Good post, blu.
(I've emailed you, btw)

I am very very sorry if I've upset anyone, and I do have some idea of the anxiety and trauma that people in this situation must go through.

For myself, perhaps because I have not been in that situation, it is very black and white. I just think that termination is not my decision to make, I don't have that right.

I agree with Saadia. Personally I don't think it's clear cut when the baby becomes a 'life' and has rights in the same way as a born child, so in my mind it is easier to think of it as a child from conception and implantation - and most certainly after the 1st trimester. Basically, I am also in the camp that the rights should be on the baby, not the mother - provocative/controversial, I know. But that is my opinion, and I realise others don't share that view.

I am currently 23 weeks pregnant and it shocks me to the core that anyone could consider that this little thing that sleeps and plays and can kick me, and react to noises and singing is a bundle of cells. All my instincts tell me that I should nourish this baby, but I do accept that others don't feel this. I have supported several friends (in a non-judgemental way, as a true friend should) in having an abortion, and without exception it has broken their hearts. To this day they still think of the 'birth' day, and look at children that age.

I cried when I saw the little baby yesterday recovered in a plastic bag from the river, and I almost cried when I heard an early comment on this thread about killing aborted babies who are born live.

Just to make a stand-alone comment rather than a response to any specific post......

IMO there is no getting away from the fact that the "product" of conception is a human fetus that exists and is therefore a human being. It's a cop out to argue that it is merely a bunch of cells that is being removed - fine, be pro-choice but at least acknowledge that you think it acceptable and justifiable to end human life in a given set of circumstances.
Personally, I think that if you believe abortion is justified it must be justifiable in all circumstances. The baby aborted by a twelve year-old rape victim is no different to the baby aborted by a hard-nosed career woman who is up for promotion in the next few months.

saadia I'm trying to get you to think about what "life " is and how much you value it. An animal is alive, breathes, feels yet you're willing for it to die just to feed you when you don't need to kill it to live. I assume like most women you practised contraception - yet each egg and sperm have the potential to become a life.

You've agreed that you are happy for life to be ended for you (you eat meat). Once you do that its a question of where you draw a line. You draw it in a different place to other people - your choice but why should your opinion matter more than someone else's?

Popurri I think I said at first its just a bundle of cells - you translated that into 23 weeks. I said earlier I'd like to see the limit dropped because there is evidence now that younger foetus's survive. Don't believe every bit of anti abortion propoganda you read. It is illegal to kill a baby born alive. The police often investigate these stories, as they are obliged to do. I haven't heard of a successful prosecution.