Wow; it's only circumcision..

[Chloejp91]

Before I get killed, I'm not suggesting it is only circumsion, that's just the title of this thread.

I'm due in less than 4 weeks and I'm having a boy. I'm definitely going to circumcise him. It's part of my culture and my partner's culture so it's going to be done. I just feel sad that it's seen as such a bad thing, where there are some benefits to it.

Anyone circumsised/circumsizing their sons?

"In an AAP cited study, the US Consumer Product Safety Commission concluded that choking on non-food objects causes approximately 22 deaths per year among all children in the United States. In a national analysis, also cited by the AAP, it was found that choking while eating food causes approximately 73 deaths per year among all children under the age of 10 in the U.S. The AAP teaches parents to be cautious because "choking on food causes the death of approximately 1 child every 5 days in the United States." The rate of boys vs. girls who die from choking is not significantly different, which this means that approximately 1 boy under the age of 10 dies every 10 days from choking in the United States, or 36 boys per year."

I actually had the wrong figure for USA deaths, it's 174 boys a year, which is one every three days. Now considering that RIC is down to 30% if it was at 100% it would be 574 deaths a year or 3 every two days. If you want to fairly compare it to any other death rate you need to double it (as other death rates include girls) so you have 3 deaths a day from RIC.

SIDS accounted for 2,247 in 2004 (the newest figure I can find, it has dropped every year) in the US. That means RIC half as many US deaths as SIDS.

But actually compare like for like, 174 deaths from RIC a year, 36 deaths from choking.

Confuddled thank you for the interesting statistical analysis.

Oh sweet Jesus - a death every three days. :(

That is just intolerable, staggering, shocking.

it actually makes my stomach clench - like the feeling I had when the consultants were prepping ds2 for his blood transfusion. Which was medically necessary, potentially life saving and I knew there was no alternative.

The poor parents of those boys that died.

To know that they died as a result of an unnecessary operation. There just aren't the words ....

kickarsequeen -

thank YOU for taking the time and trouble to read it. Unlike some.

Feel free, I'm not a bigot, I have no problem with religion, it is 1 act in the name of religion that I have issues with.

Confuddled's info is very interesting, please feel free to link to the gmc stating it is equivocal.

www.gmc-uk.org/guidance_circumcise_1997.pdf_25416429.pdf

I hope this works as I am posting from my phone.

The BMA acknowledges that the evidence is conflicting and not conclusive:

www.bma.org.uk/ethics/consent_and_capacity/malecircumcision2006.jsp

No, It doesn't work, you need and I'll have to C&P.....

Ok, I've c & P'd both of your addresses and neither link to anything. Its late, I'm off for the night.

I guess the legality question comes down to is RIC medically necessary? If the answer is no then you have caused a doctor to perform unnecessary surgery on a child.

Ladysoandso, sadly it?s an all too common story. I?ve heard of a lady who?s baby was done before she?d delivered the placenta or even held her baby.

SVH78 are people who have been through hazing the best placed to say that hazing should happen to others? RIC is cultural hazing.

I love how blunt Penn is about the issue

My stepson was done for the same reason as his father (a rare deformity that runs in his family) they did him older because they hoped it may right itself after my partner had a corrective procedure and it righted itself meaning he had to be done (very hard to tell this in one sentence). He was in pain for a long time. My partner spent time with him afterwards as he was the only one he could take comfort from. He?d just sit in the bath for hours to try and ease the pain.

STDs and HIV are more prevalent in the USA than the UK, says a lot for RIC as a method of protection.

KickArseQueen, in a man it equates to removing a postcard worth of size from their penis! I love winding my male friends up by asking if they would be up for it, the reaction is generally similar to the one if you asked if they?d like a kick in the nuts.

The deaths obviously don't include complications - including sex change!

www.circumstitions.com/

I read the postcard fact on the above website - which I stumbled across during one of the circumcision threads from years ago.

Obviously makes no attempt to suggest that the site is unbiased but then as they say, they're fighting (in USA at least) a bias towards circumcision in the media.

Reminds me of a sex and the city episode where I think samantha comes across an uncut penis for the first time, and the rest of the women react really negatively to the concept. Bizarre and very disturbing.

imarriedafrog, It also involves separating the foreskin from the glans, which is the equivalent of separating your nail from your finger.

And people think its ok because its the "modern option"

Anyway I should be in bed, school run tomorrow.

Ladysoandso you're welcome.

I broke my nail right across, just above the crescent. I don't remember as an adult crying so much in pain! It's been more than 3 months and I'm still in pain, my GP suggested I got an acrylic put on it to protect it whilst it finished growing out which I did just over a week ago and it's the first time it's not hurt.

Seriously, if you're not willing to have your own foreskin removed (which we all, female too, have) then get your nail removed. It's pretty easy to do, I just shut it in the car door (considering it's my right hand and I was a passenger, you'd think I had done it deliberately )

www.bma.org.uk/ethics/consent_and_capacity/malecircumcision2006.jsp

www.gmc-uk.org/guidance_circumcise_1997.pdf_25416429.pdf

Confuddled - the legality question does not come down to that. What it comes down to is that by the current laws of this country it is legal. As a matter of fact, courts can order circumcision in certain circumstance where there is a dispute between the parents (I don't in fact agre with this but it it true).

What this thread shows is that there is a lot of conflicting opinions and evidence and everyone can find quotes/research/medical opinion to support what they think. It is therefore a debate which cannot come out in favour of anyone's opinion.

SVH,

I think the abuse/paedophilia arguments are ridiculous. The Jewish culture is one of the most pro family that I know. Even if they are wrong about circumcision, you have to look at the overall picture.

It is a sober question of long term gain (both health and cultural) versus short term discomfort. Most people I know who have had it done have had it done with some form of pain relief.

I can see and understand the arguments against it but 99.5% (min) of people who have had it done are pleased that they have.

And, out of all those who have argued that it is obscene to take away a part of one's body that one is born with, how about ear piercing? We are all born with full earlobes. Anyone here who has argued against circumcision who has pierced earlobes?

When dd was four weeks old she was admitted to hospital with suspected meningitis. To rule out this possibility the doctors did a lumber puncture. I was sent away as the procedure would be "distressing". I was told to come back in fifteen mins. After ten mins I felt like I had to check on my baby, but they hadn't finished. The sound of her screaming was unbearable and I begged to be let in but of course I wasn't. Thankfully she didn't have meningitis, but I still feel terrible for inflicting on her what turned out to be unnecessary pain. So in my opinion circumcision is incomprehensible. But I suppose people do all sorts of crazy things in the name of religion which most rational peole find abhorrent.

larry - making silly sweeping statements like "99.5% (min) of people who have had it done are pleased that they have." doesn't add anything to the discussion.

As a women I have had sex with both circ and uncirc men and I can tell you that there is NO QUESTION AT ALL that an uncircumcised knob is MUCH MORE FUN. Im not sure how far I can go here without sounding pornographic but to feel the foreskin moving back and forth is delicious - both in vaginal sex and in the mouth.

Also, gay men have clubs and websites dedicated to the foreskin - here's one I picked at random - foreskin fever. Circumcised gay men LOVE men with foreskins.

www.foreskin-fever.com/

You can now have your foreskin rebuilt so there must be a demand eh?

And yes, I would find it obscene if the earlobe was cut away but I find nothing wrong with pierced ears or a pierced dick.

Talking about pierced ears is a strawman argument. A pierced ear is of a completely different order of body modification, permanence, pain and risk than circumcision. An ear piercing does not remove a sizeable piece of very sensitive genital tissue.

But since you brought it up, yes I do have (one) pierced ear. I had it done when I was a 19yo man who was able to make an informed decision and to give consent to it happening.

What about the issue of consent for (non-medically required) circumcision of a baby? If it's of cultural or religious importance for someone to be circumcised, why is it unreasonable to simply wait until that boy is old enough to make an informed decision himself? He may grow up not wanting to be identified with that culture or religion.

Ladysoandso - I wholeheartedly disagree that an uncircumcised penis is more fun. I too have experienced both and MUCH MUCH prefer a circumcised penis!!! It therefore is clearly a matter of opinion - much like this thread!

W

larry - I agree about Judaism being very pro family (even though as I have said I am not Jewish). I note that GenevieveHawkings ignored my question about what qualified her to comment upon the religion.....