Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Pregnancy

Talk about every stage of pregnancy, from early symptoms to preparing for birth.

Wow; it's only circumcision..

781 replies

Chloejp91 · 29/12/2010 22:11

Before I get killed, I'm not suggesting it is only circumsion, that's just the title of this thread.

I'm due in less than 4 weeks and I'm having a boy. I'm definitely going to circumcise him. It's part of my culture and my partner's culture so it's going to be done. I just feel sad that it's seen as such a bad thing, where there are some benefits to it.

Anyone circumsised/circumsizing their sons?

OP posts:
GenevieveHawkings · 04/01/2011 18:15

Organised religion was something invented by powerful people a very long time ago when people were largely clueless about most things to keep other people under control.

It's a shame that in so-called enlightened societies people still need it.

It's even more of a shame that the weak-minded people who still have a need for such stuff and nonsense are prepared to mutilate innocent children's bodies in it's name.

minipie · 04/01/2011 18:17

If circumcision had never been invented before today (i.e. was not an ingrained tradition), and a medical in 2011 suggested for the first time that cutting off the foreskin might have some hygiene benefits, what would the reaction be?

I suspect the reaction would be "well there might be some hygiene benefits but no way are they worth cutting a piece off a baby".

Let's be honest, people circumcise their children for cultural and traditional reasons and any health benefits are used as a secondary justification.

Whether you think cultural and traditional reasons are enough generally depends on whether you share that culture and those traditions.

SVH78 · 04/01/2011 18:22

Isn't that done with just topical gel?

We are having the plastibel procedure with a local anaesthetic injection which is more effective than the gel.

pointissima · 04/01/2011 18:24

MumNW London Personally I think circumcision completely barbaric and that it should be illegal. As a matter of interest, what would Orthodox Jews do if it were illegal?

This doesn't diminish the extent to which the practice horrifies me; but I do understand that you have a much harder decision to make than the rest of us.

SVH78 · 04/01/2011 18:27

GenevieveHawkings - you clearly have differing views to the millions of religious people in the world!!

minipie - I wholeheartedly agree with your last sentence.

Imarriedafrog · 04/01/2011 18:28

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SVH78 · 04/01/2011 18:40

Imarriedafrog - I know lots of family members and friends whose sons have had the procedure (that is how I have witnessed it) and none of them have said that their sons were in pain after the procedure. A few of the babies were a bit 'grisly' (for want of a better word)for a few hours afterwards but that was all.

SVH78 · 04/01/2011 18:41

ps - I am very sorry to hear that you had a horrible experience - that must have been awful for you and your DH

Imarriedafrog · 04/01/2011 18:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ILoveItWhenYouCallMeBoo · 04/01/2011 18:50

agree with genevieve and Imarried's last post.

SVH78 · 04/01/2011 18:55

As I have said, having witnessed the procedure, it is not what you have described as happened to your son and therefore it is not about whether I am better at detaching myself. The two procedures are obviously incomparable.

Imarriedafrog · 04/01/2011 19:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SVH78 · 04/01/2011 19:30

I note your point and will let you know after the procedure although I obviously think that it will be ok.

Imarriedafrog · 04/01/2011 19:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ladysoandso · 04/01/2011 19:46

SVH has to have this procedure done to her son. She has no choice if it is for religious reasons for her AND her dh. I doubt the woman has much say in this very patriarchal ritual. The only way to cope with it it to blank out any negative comments. The child she witnessed being circumcised was very probably the baby of a friend in exactly the same situation she is in (how else would you be invited to watch something so private?) and that mother probably felt so distraught at what she had done, she told a lie, saying the baby was fully recovered after 3 days. I can find NOWHERE where it says recovery is that fast. It simply isnt true.

SVH - you really need to arm yourself with truthful facts and stop pulling the wool over your own eyes.

The article I linked wasn't the full article. In the magazine. Dr Fleiss (jewish and circumcised) was expected to perform the operation as a young doctor but found it so stomach churningly disturbing he refused to do it and set about changing the AAP recommendations. Which he did.

SVH78 · 04/01/2011 19:56

Anyone that knows me and my DH/family would laugh at the suggestion that I am being forced into this by the men in my family!! I am no pushover and am fully armed with the facts and have witnessed the procedure and the recovery MYSELF so please don't suggest that I am ill informed or have been lied to by friends.

GenevieveHawkings · 04/01/2011 20:53

ladysoandso you are spot on about SVH78. Orthodox judaism is probably the most patriarchal, mysoginistic and repressive regime for women to live under. The men have managed to convince them it's not though and they know best so there's no danger whatsoever of the blinkers slipping off.

Anyway, there's no point whatsoever in trying to speak rationally to the terminally deluded.

And SVH78 maybe my views do differ from the millions of religious people terminally deluded people in the world, such as yourself. For that I couldn't be more thankful.

SVH78 · 04/01/2011 22:25

As I have already said, I am not Jewish!

Reducing yourself to personal comments about me and religious people shows that you have no further ratio argument to present. Give your opinion by all means but do not lower yourself to personal insults - it's not an educated rational way to deal with an issue.

I would like to know what qualifies you to comment on orthodox Judaism. Are you Jewish perhaps? Or have you studied world religion?

SVH78 · 04/01/2011 22:26

Rational not ratio

KickArseQueen · 04/01/2011 22:49

SHV78,

"KickArseQueen - I come from a community where all the men have been circumcised and I have never encountered a man who is unhappy about it. The hundreds that you talk about pale in comparison to the actual number of men that were circumcised as children and have absolutely no problem with it. Your view that it doesn't give a good ration of success is nonsense and completely without foundation."

Spend lots of time talking to men about how happy they are with their foreskins do you? In most communities where foreskin removal is considered normal, for a man to stand up and declare his upset would cause problems. Just because someone hasn't said they are unhappy with something doesn't mean they are ecstatic about it either!

"I also find it very strange that so many of you have what appears to be an unhealthy obsession with researching circumcision in infants when it is not something that you would consider for your children or which is not a religious/cultural belief in your society."

Not strange at all, and not remotely unhealthy. Quite the opposite. I have a son and he ( aged about 7 months) had balanitis. It happened twice in a few months and a friend said that maybe circumcision would be a good idea.

Unlike most people I like to look into things properly, I don't like to make assumptions. That is how I came to learn about the truth behind circumcision. I continued to read and investigate because I was so horrified that such a thing is still happening in the world and I am determined to bring the facts to any parent who is considering doing that to their child.

"Isn't that done with just topical gel?

We are having the plastibel procedure with a local anaesthetic injection which is more effective than the gel."

No, "We" aren't having anything. Your son is. To be precise you are talking about a ring block anasthetic. In order for this to work the anasthetic has to be injected into exactly into the right place, it is incredibly difficult to get it right. DP had this done on his finger after he dislocated it, he says that the injections into the nerves was excrutiating and it was only a partial success, he was in agony when they tried to reduce his finger. On a baby it is that much harder because they are much smaller.

SVH78 Even if you did change your mind I doubt very much that you would admit such a thing. You are incredibly defensive and in my experience, people who are as defensive as you know what they are doing is wrong, but don't want to admit it.

"Iloveitwhenyoucallmeboo - it is a parenting decision like whether to vaccinate e.g. MMR jabs and the debate about autism etc"

No actually its not. Parents give vaccinations in the hope that the child will be spared from an illness, RIC isn't going to spare them from anything and could cause serious problems for the child in later life. I may have said this before, but just in case Wink ITS UNNECESSARY

I entered into learning about RIC with an open mind and made a decision based on the facts and medical evidence. Your mind is closed.

"Opinions changed against their will remain of their opinion still."

You are not willing to take in new advice / information. I'm not going to bother giving you any its pointless.

If you want to have a proper discussion then please bring me facts and links, not superstition and twaddle.

ladysoandsos link

Thankyou ladysoandso, that was very informative. :)

I particulary like this bit..

"Depending on the amount of skin cut off, circumcision robs a male of as much as 80 percent or more of his penile skin. Depending on the foreskin's length, cutting it off makes the penis as much as 25 percent or more shorter. Careful anatomical investigations have shown that circumcision cuts off more than 3 feet of veins, arteries, and capillaries, 240 feet of nerves, and more than 20,000 nerve endings.31 The foreskin's muscles, glands, mucous membrane, and epithelial tissue are destroyed, as well."

25 Percent shorter?? Can't imagine very many men being happy about that! And that really is the least of it.

GenevieveHawkings · 04/01/2011 22:54

Apparently there's a giant pink fairy that lives in a huge rhubarb patch at the end of my garden that wants me to lop my son's earlobes off.

I wonder what the Police would have to say about it if I did it and then told them that was why I did it?

SVH78 you can't apply any sort of rational logic when discussing matters with religious people the terminally deluded. It just doesn't work, as you have proved.

There are countless posts here on this thread where people have elucidated rational, educated, articulate and well-informed and well-thought-out arguments.

You remain terminally deluded.

Stay in your bubble by all means, with your blinkers on and your fingers plugged firmly in your ears singing "dah-de-dah-de-dah I can't hear you" at the top of your voice. It's just such a dreadful shame (and should be a crime IMHO) that what goes on in your bubble fills your head with the things it does and brainwashes you to believe that you are morally obliged to abuse your own children and stand by (and watch!) while others' abuse theirs.

SVH78 · 04/01/2011 23:01

I haven't been at all defensive - I have presented my views and opinions based on my own research, experience and the experiences of those I know.

You think I'm terminally deluded - that is your opinion to which you are entitled, just as I am entitled to mine.

I am married to a liberal Jew against the wishes of my community and those of my faith so I am not at all one to be brainwashed or 'deluded'.

I have provided several links and my opinions and have not lowered myself to personal insults as others have. I suggest we all behave like adults and respect the opinions if others in relation to lawful medically reconised procedures.

KickArseQueen · 04/01/2011 23:10

You have been defensive and some of your posts have verged on attacking.

This is what a link looks like and this one really might help you The instructions are in the links and smileys section below.

I do coincidentally respect the opinion of the medical profession that RIC is unnecessary, except in certain medical conditions where it is a treatment of last resort.

I cannot make myself respect the opinion of someone who wants to mutilate her child.

SVH78 · 04/01/2011 23:15

Well then perhaps I shouldn't respect the opinions of those with bigoted views!

I have certainly not attacked people in my posts depsite the fact that I have been personally insulted!

SVH78 · 04/01/2011 23:18

The GMC say that the medical evidence is equivocal so your reference to the opinion of the medical profession is not accurate.

Swipe left for the next trending thread