Dec 08 Ladies - Maybe this thread they'll ALL sleep through the night at the same time!

[Beans33]

Apologies for rubbish title, couldn't think of anything - mind is totally riddled by hormones...!

Thanks Jam and Effie - really appreciate the support. The trouble with the longer bedtime routine is that post-nursery she's always knackered and a bit fractious so we've never really done the evening bath thing - baths are for mornings or weekends when she's happy - but maybe now she's a bit older I should start trying that again? Thought I might see how the next few bedtimes go because usually she is pretty good at going to bed, that may (touch wood) be a temporary thing.

She's definitely of the sort that's best just ignored rather than going into the room - if I go in she just thinks "at last! Mummy!" and then goes even more mental when I leave.

In my tiredness this morning I forgot to even say that DH has gone - safely landed in South Africa (had about the same amount of sleep as me on the plane!)

Kiwi - I don't know what your DD is like, but I will second effie and jam with the idea that some children need to be left to it. Both DD and DS sometimes woke in the night. With DS it is almost always possible to settle him with a few pats on the back, but we always found with DD that anything you tried to do (including night feedings eventually) just had her howling all the louder. In the end there really was nothing else to be done other than leave her to it and after a while, she got the idea. She is still a nightmare to settle to sleep in the evening - I think some children find the whole going to sleep thing scary and difficult and there isn't an easy way round that. We spent about 6 months sitting with DD in the dark until she fell asleep (an hour or more sometimes). She still bounces around at bed time, but is a bit teenagerish in the morning - lots of "go away mummy I want to sleep". Definitely sod the neighbours and do whatever you need to for your sanity and for her - its surely better for her too to learn to sleep than be up half the night.

Thanks all for your kind words. Veggie - if it comes to it, there will have to be a redundancy package, but on the whole better that it doesn't come to that as its much harder to move from unemployment as client contacts etc go cold. And effie, believe me, I definitely have days where I would gladly hide under the duvet! And LadyT as usual, you get to the heart of the problem - it is hard not to feel crap about myself and above all useless. I know its not true, but sometimes that is easy to forget.

LadyT - I think you need to look at your own wise counsel for yourself! I suspect the book world is one where you need to be pretty thick skinned and in the end, you only need ONE publisher to say yes to your book, not eight. I am positive that anything you have written would be more than well worth reading and deserves to be a big commercial success. It will all come out in the wash, and you have to keep reminding yourself of that, but I know that the short term must still feel pretty scary - and I know exactly how that feels.

Veggie - sorry you had a shouty day, I know they make everyone feel rubbish. But there is always a next day, which of course is bound to be brilliant

Kiwi, I def think it will work if you are just strong and not give in. She needs to learn how to self settle I feel (not that I'm any kind of sleep guru) I would def do the bath routine at night too. With ds I just say what's going to happen ie. "Let's go upstairs and have a bath, then milk, Iggle Piggle and bed, and silly as it sounds he totally gets it and ever since I started explaining what we were going to do every night he rarely kicks off over going to bed, and loves his bath (but strangely only at our house ) If it's too hard to leave her to it at night I would consider Avo's Mrs Sleep too - sounds like she's worth every penny.

Glad your dh is safely there. He will be back in no time, and hopefully to a brand new sleepy babykiwi

Kiwi - cross posted. Def sounds like she is better left to it. She may not find it terribly easy to get to sleep, but she sounds like my DD and all the antics are really an attempt at distraction from the scary business of actually going to sleep. Glad your DH arrived safely. I'm sure you'll miss him, but in some ways it might be easier to sort sleep out while he's away - in some ways if you're both there you dither much more!

I've got an even better idea, do whatever you need to do to get through this month, then when MrKiwi gets back go to Mexico & let Mr Kiwi sort it out & listen to her screams. In fact let's all go to Mexico!!!

Lady I think if they know a few words it's even more frustrating for them as they know how to express themselves a little so when the words they need aren't there is must be so annoying, believe me I feel her pain I wanted to tell a shop lady yesterday she was the rudest women ever but she didn't understand English, like DD I have a couple of words I could throw at her but hallo, Niet zo geode, & kip (chicken) were just not going to cut the mustard.

Rubes, Lady, Kiwi, Beans, I would LOVE to meet up tom but alas I am off to Scotland to see a friend without the children. Hurray! Kiwi, I actually work on Mondays so that day not good for me at the moment (tho I have hols coming up) but any other day good. Glad DH landed safely. And definitely sod the neightbours. Sorry it's so tough.

Have just peeked at my work emails and am now in tears over something stupid. I would resign if I could afford it but I can't of course. Can anyone suggest an alternative career for me? Trained lawyer and teacher, good cook, likes music, food and wine. Oh and children .

Sorry not more personals. got to rush.

kiwi Glad your DH landed safely but boo to another poor night. I'd go for the idea of a bedtime routine too, it doesn't have to involve a bath maybe just maybe a wash/splash in the sink, teeth brushing, PJs etc, with some music on that signals bedtime. Are you doing baby signing or have I got mixed up?! Since DD started doing the sign for bed she does it when in the bath and sometimes while still in her high chair finishing her tea. I think her saying bed helps, as if it is her idea almost IYSWIM.

sybil I wish I could help, a teacher of infant wine tasters perhaps? On a serious note, I am sorry you feel down about work, hopefully things will look much better after your trip away.

Sybs: have you considered private coaching (children that is)? There seems to be a massive market for it in London. I don't think it's all cramming either, there's a mner in hackney who coaches on learning through play.

Sybs - don't cry! Oh poor you. Why don't you and I set up a cooking business? Actually, I'm semi-serious. I'm a trained chef, not so's you'd know of late, but we could put something together and stock people's freezers for them, or supply picnics or do christenings etc. I'd love to do something like that!

Kiwi - I'd definitely second whoever said to get bathtime into the routine. Might take a few nights, but for DD it's definitely a trigger to make her realise it's nearly bedtime. Make sure lots of toys to play with, then milk, Iggle Piggle, storytime, then bed. That's what we do. She won't necessarily go straight to sleep, but I now ignore her once she's in bed and let her go to sleep on her own. I really hope you get her to sleep through soon. But it does sound like a few nights of hell, for a better end result.

DD was trying to squeeze out a biggie this morning, so tried popping her on the potty. Obviously scared the poo right back up - no sign of anything since! Oops!

I can't do a meet up tomorrow, but could potentially do next week sometime?

xx

PS Hope I'm not sounding bossy about bathtime - ignore me! xx

Awwww Sybs, just a bad day or sick of it for good?
Beans a chef??? Erm, remind me not to bring anything I've baked over to yours! I can do savoury stuff but I'm useless at baking
Sybs, Beans and Lady don't worry as I've completely overlooked something I'm spose to do tomorrow, and then I'm off on hols next week, but when I return, if anyone fancies coming over, more than welcome.

Right soon as ds wakes we're off to the water park He's had no swimming for half term and got photo's on Sat so must practise!

Sybs, do NOT let idiots, numskulls and nomarks put you off your stride! You are great. Take a deep breath, tell them all to fuck off in your mind, and have a lovely weekend. Things'll seem better after you've had a break, bet you any money.

Kiwi, I have been trying to put my mind to your problem. It has actually been shown in research that people (and I assume also babies) sleep better after a bath or shower, so definitely worth giving that a try. Have you tried these products? I like them. Don't know if they work, but they smell nice, and are stocked at Boots www.littlemebabyorganics.co.uk/sleepy-head.html and I also use a Sleep Sheep as part of bedtime routine when we are at home www.amazon.co.uk/Cloud-b-Sleep-Sheep/dp/B000R3PBX6 as well as a www.johnlewis.com/230454435/Product.aspx?source=14798 I think JJ's idea of designated sleep music to signify bedtime is good. None of these things are going to work overnight but some might stick. And Avo's magic sleep lady was a miracle worker, I remember that well. Second others in that whilst your DH is away, it's a good time to try and implement a whole new regime.

Invis, thanks for kind words about book situation. Agent says he thinks my book is 'chick lit themes in a literary style' and he thinks it is giving publishers a problem (ie can't be published as chick lit because it's wordier than they expect, and can't be marketed as literary either, because literary types want to read about, say, the fictionalised vacillations of an 1930s Argentinian general). Once I picked myself up from the floor, I began to realise that I may indeed have boxed myself into a corner a bit, and that there is something in what he says. Although it made me remember what drove me nutty about the publishing world.

Onward and upward...it should be our thread mantra. Except I think I like 'this too will pass' more.

What about 'Tomorrow, the world!' I reckon we can do a lot better than we think.

I've sounded my boss out about reducing hours and a poss job share and he was very positive. Phew. Now to sound out the prospective share-ee.

Lady - actually, chick lit themes in a literary style sounds exactly like the kind of thing I'd love to read - you're basically talking Jane Austen, which is virtually everyone's favourite!

Syb - they're not worth your tears.

Kiwi - I know everyone has been on with good advice about bathtimes, music, bedtime routines etc. But I wanted to add, don't beat yourself up if it doesn't work or if it doesn't grab you as something that would work for you. We have all that - bedtime music since dd was a dot, bath, stories, black out blind etc. DD is just nobody's fool and doesn't much like to settle to sleep - these days she just tries to keep us talking - its her time of the day to download all the random stuff in her head. That doesn't mean you are condemned to crap nights forever, but I guess what I am saying is that you should just go with whatever feels right for you.

Oh that's great, effie - hurrah!

Rubes - I'm a pretty average cook, unless I am inspired and then I can whip up a nice dish. But that's rare! I trained as a make up artist too - not that you'd ever know to look at me! So a bit of a jack of all trades, master of none.

Lady - maybe you could start a new market - Lit chick lit or something? Or Lick chit. Hmm, now there's a thought. I can't understand why these things have to be marketed in such boxes - I guess it's a recognisable market to target etc. But be bold and different - far more interesting. I'd love to read your book!

My blood pressure was up at the doctor's this morning. Our house sale is about to fall through and I've been getting my knickers in a total twist about it. So have decided to just sit back and let what will be, be. If we don't sell to these arseholes, then someone else will buy it - it's a lovely house after all. We were meant to complete on Monday, and on Saturday they started asking for all this other information that just aren't necessary and shouldn't have held up the exchange. To be honest, I don't really want to sell to them any more. Their solicitor is also a total bastard. So rude and unpleasant. So I am chilling and letting it run its course!

Sorry, blathering on!

Oh Beans I'm sorry about the stress. Is this your ex who is buying? Not what you need at the moment.

Not him - we decided not to accept their offer. Went for a higher offer from some other people.

Beans, I am really sorry. Listen, your buyers might be really green and panicky and influenced by their solicitor. Some conveyancing solicitors don't live in the real world. It may not mean they don't want to buy it. Take a deep breath, speak to the wanky solicitor or get yours to, find out what they need to move forward and see what can be done. But even if it does fall through, in that part of town the market is buoyant so you'll find another buyer.

Aw, thanks Invis I can't say it was what I set out to write but I suppose it is an accurate if somewhat brutal description. There have been other examples (eg a book called Sleep With Me by Joanna Briscoe, which Bloomsbury published) but I guess they are a bit thin on the ground...This dreadful putting things in boxes (as you say Beans) is even worse when it comes to children's books. To say that they have rigid categorisation is putting it mildly.

Effie, that's great that your boss was receptive. A good start.

It's just slightly hellish as they're asking for information/works to be done. Should have asked for it weeks ago when survey was done, but now too late when I've got 2 weeks til baby due!

Beans - this last minute messing about is all too normal I'm afraid. You've got the right idea, just keep your nerve and it will hopefully work out, either with them or another buyer.

Effie - meant to say, so glad to see that there is a good chance of you getting what you want.

LadyT - interesting, don't know the Joanna Briscoe, will look it out. Anyway, there is definitely an appetite for chick lit themes in literary style - a mate of my sister wrote "Chastened", an account of a year without sex. Its unashamedly "intellectual" musing about relationships etc, but ultimately is all about the chick lit chesnut of finding your man. Its done pretty well. Obviously that sold partly because of the degree of soul baring she was prepared to go for, but I don't reckon that on its own would have made it sell.

I think I remember that book, Invis. It's all a case of finding an editor with whom your book strikes a chord, I guess, who will get behind it, and it really is like the proverbial needle in a haystack. But I did know that before I started, so have only myself to blame. If you do read Sleep With Me I would be interested to hear your thoughts.

Beans, that is very naughty that they are asking for stuff that should have been asking for after the survey was done. Hmm. Sounds like their solicitor is trying to cover his ass. What does your sol think? So you haven't exchanged yet? Can he say to them that you are on a deadline and it's take it or leave it, and set them on a deadline to exchange? Are you willing to take the risk?

As I have been paying full Class 2 National Insurance contribs since being self-employed, it looks like I might get the full rate of Maternity Allowance, without it being dependent on what I have earned. It would be wonderful if so, as it's about £500 a month, and whilst it wouldn't cover all my commitments it would be a real help. Spot, I know you were wondering about this stuff.

Hi Ladies,

I don't log on for 24 hours and then when I do everyone is sounding very down. I wish we could all get together and cheer each other up.

Invis - your work situation sounds potentially very hurtful. It's horrible when colleagues stab you in the back. I do hope something comes up for you soon. At least if you do have to live off redundancy pay for a while that will mean some quality time with your lively kids.

Beans - urgh the stress of house selling. Do not let it get to you. You don't want your BP to climb at this stage. Do as you plan and just sit back and act like you don't care. TBH that will probably scare the buyers into action.

Sybs - boo to the nasty email. Remind me what you
do? I hope you have a lovely few days away.

WG - I hope you are OK. I am sorry you don't feel up to posting. xxx

MoM - if you are lurking let us know. I hope all is ok.

LadyT - I am sure CD isn't meaning to ignore your texts. She is actually notoriously bad at replying to things, it's so bad that we joke about it. I am sorry that your book hadn't been picked up yet but I am sure it's just a matter of time. Is Joanna Briscoe a lesbian from Devon? Odd question but I might be getting her confused with someone else.

Well I have to say Paris ain't that much fun when you are on your own, in the rain, staying in a faceless business hotel. I am working here today, tomorrow and all next week but I miss the girls so much that I am coming back to London for 48 hours over the weekend. Some might say I am mad for passing up a childfree weekend in one of Europe's great capitals but I just wanna go home. DD1 is still ill and I hate not being there for her. Plus I want to watch the football with DH. I love big England matches. I have taught DD1 to sing "Three Lions" - she does it very seriously. So cute. God I miss them.

Avo, yay to coming back for the football. I am going to a big party to watch it with various lovely schoolfriends of DP and all their kids, at a v large house nr Parliament Hill, and I am really looking forward to that. I love capital cities but I have never really warmed to Paris - not sure why. I won't worry about CD, then. I was just fretting she thinks I am trying to avoid paying her. In fact, I think she is trying to avoid my paying her I don't know about Joanna Briscoe being a Devon lesbo as I am probably the least curious person in the world about the biographical details of writers, ho ho. But she may very well be. It was a peculiar book, with dowdy women whom you wouldn't imagine would be at all desirable, cast in the roles of irresistible temptresses. Buy yourself a nice Diptyque candle (cheaper in Paris) and I hope your DD1 has perked up nicely for your return.

Avo - totally sympathise with wanting to come home, business trips are just not what they are cracked up to be! I'm sure you being back will perk DD1 up.

LadyT - you have tempted me into an Amazon book buying spree . Like I need any excuse.

I am very envious of your football watching plans! I am still trying to work out how on earth DH and I will get to watch any, as 7.30pm kick-offs straddle bed time in our house, with DCs settling down around 8pm on a good day and on recent form more like 9pm. Do you reckon I could persuade DD that an England game is a good substitute for bedtime Charlie & Lola?

Many thanks for all the advice guys. I might see how DD is post-nursery today - if she's knackered I might not start the bathing tonight (though she does need one ). We do use a little bit of music - she has one of those Tomy Stars that projects a moving picture on to the ceiling with accompanying music (I don't think she ever looks at the projection since she sleeps on her tummy!) - but when I've tried putting it on in the middle of the night it makes no difference. Mind you she probably can't hear it above the howling.

Actually the one piece of music guaranteed to calm her down/ get her to sleep, at least in the car, is, err, Nothing Else Matters by Metallica. She even has a couple of Metallica babygrows . Hmm so I need a Metallica-themed Sleepy Sheep I think ...

You are all, incidentally, banned from cheering on England . If they make it through to the semi finals there's a good chance that DH will have to stay in SA even LONGER.