DEC 08 - Barely into toddlerhood and already at our tit's end

[MomOrMum]

Tit's end...had to be done.

Hope this works!

Happy birthday Urbane!!

On the eating, we have had a breakthrough....well DH did, I love DH. Tonight DS ate a whole portion of artichoke pasta (sounds gross but it was yummy) - homemade. It took some patience - but he ate it. Well I didn't see actually, but DH wouldn't lie! And i came downstairs and he was eating toast. Enthusiatically not just nibbling it. This is truly miraculous and won't necessarily last, but still good.
urbane your advice is exactly what the HV told us to do, give lots of things to try, and with finger foods, give lots of encouragement if they even just put it to their mouth. And if they try it even if it's not much or they spit it out. The only trouble is that she also said don't make mealtimes longer than half an hour and we have real problems with getting any food down him in half an hour in addition to giving him time "playing" around (read ignoring) with food. The other problem is that a) we have limited time between getting him in from nursery and bedtime so have to try and get food down him fastish and b) he is waking a reasonable amount at night wanting milk and we worry this is because he isn't eating enough (though at the moment it doesn't seem to correlate with how much he has eaten)

daisy hope you and your DH are doing ok, thinking of you all.

That's wonderful news on the meal SL, and it does sound yummy. Recipe?

I am back from London town looking at too much stuff in the V&A and checking on my beloved little flat and v tired now but I did just want to say to Urbaneski - Many Happy Returns! - and to Daisy - I will post tomorrow with links for readings and things. FWIW Daisy, I think you are being incredibly sensible and doing really well with all this. It's so hard.

DD was eating really well to day with DP , however, she cried a lot which she doesn't normally do so maybe she wondered where I was.

Right, night all, big Sunday night love to you, more in the morning.

Hi all, just back from weekend away, DH and I did some fab music with a really great gang of people and a massively inspirational director upon whom I might have a bit of a girly crush whose opinion I greatly admire and we left dd with a good pal nearby both days. And just to say LadyT and SL and anyone else with food refuseniks, her daughter is 4 months older than our lot and hardly eats anything, she still has 4 bottles of formula a day and their HV isn't too worried at all. As long as they're getting their calories from somewhere, that's the main thing.

am knackered, 2 dodgy nights in a row (up and playing from 10-midnight on Friday, then just wouldn;t settle last night and woke up super-early [yawn]) so off to bed now, catch up with everyone tomorrow. We've got our first baby signing class so let's see if it's full of people like ZJ's competimom!

Morning all

Daisy: wishing you strength for this week, you are doing an amazing job. Good luck for the reading - do you have to choose something? Is it a church service?

Trace: no idea re: the pills (are you getting on OK with the higher dose?) but I'm also wondering about how long to bf for. Actually, DH is wondering how long I will be bfing for as he seems to have got it into his head that I am only bfing DS2 because I think I ought to. It's tough at the minute because he wants to feed all the time, esp at night. So of course DH says 'well, stop feeding him' but I'd like to carry on for a while longer, though ideally only once or twice a day. Hooray for P sleeping through!

Zoe: you're absolutely right on 'professional' traits, when I think of some of the people I've worled with ... we're all fairly normal though. On a good day .

Rubena: sounds like you got into a bit of a ruckus! It's much easier to get into nasty arguements on MN, but then people forget about them pretty quickly.

SL: hooray on the pasta eating! Would you care to post a recipe?

Speaking of baby food, does anyone have any good veggie recipes? DS2 is not keen on meat at all, he used to eat a bit of chicken but even that gets chucked overboard now. He loves peas, beans and other green veg, toast and fruit so he gets a fairlyu varied diet, but I struggle with protein (esp as DS1 loves his meat but won't eat much veg apart from peas. And they can't live on peas).

I was chuckling about competitive parenting (walking AND talking by one???). DS2 is yet to walk (he's just turned 13 months) and certainly isn't following any commands, one-word or otherwise. He does babble a fair amount and has a few words, but I'm not sure at this age how you can tell exactly what they're trying to communicate verbally, as their vocab is so woolly still.

I enjoyed reading all your posts over the weekend but have forgotten loads! Apart form HAPPY BIRTHDAY to Urbane for yesterday

effie I have lots of little ways to get protein in as DS1 used to be veggie and of course we are. In soups I always pop in red split lentals as they just kind of blend in or whizz in tofu, it makes it nice and creamy. Also if you can find Quinoa (pronounced Keenwa) flakes you can pop that into soups or purees as a thickener and is high in protein and is a complete protein. Millet flakes and quinoa flakes can be made into a lovely porridge for breakfast. DS2 likes nibbling on chick peas which are very high in protein and of course there is always eggs in all their different cooked incarnations. Oh and polenta, it's high in protein and both boys love polenta chips, DS1 big time, he literally lived on polenta at one stage, which can also have veggies snuck in,and a polenta pizza base is yummy. There a few of the ways I get protein in, but don't forget you don't have to get protein into every meal, paediatricians and dieticians suggest looking at diet over a week rather than daily as it is getting in everything over a week which is much more possible than daily.

Oh and almost forgot full Quinoa, millet and amaranth grains can be used in place of rice to increase protein.

I love Quinoa and I am a carnivore through and through - it's delicious!

Rubes - I'm with everyone else on ignoring those threads - really not worth listening to other people - you know what's right for you, whether it's c-section whatever. It's so easy for others to judge, when actually I'm a big believer in people doing what suits them, not what other people think they should. I have been guilty of judging friends for their parenting in the past and I suddenly thought - how dare I??! How would I feel if someone was judging me - which they probably are!!! So I now think live and let live. You do what's best for you and your family and don't let anyone tell you otherwise!

I'm sorry I am too crap to respond to everyone, but happy birthday Urbane! And to all non-eaters - it must be so frustrating, but I asked my sister about it and she said that it's nearly always a stage and you just have to keep plugging on and eventually they'll come round. As long as they're noshing their milk down, then all will be well in the end. I hasten to add, my sister isn't an expert, just a mother (which is a great qualification in my book!), but she tends to speak sense! x

Quinoa a v good plan - DS2 used to love the Plum Baby foods with added quinoa. Will search it out in the health food shop. Both of them love chickpeas as well. It's finding a meal we'll all like, as DH is a big carnivore and suspicious of veggie meals...

Effie you can get Quinoa at Waitrose.

I need some advice please. I am trying to get DD used to being away from me, even though I work from home I need SOME time to get it done so had planned to take her to a friends and leave her for one morning a week. The first time was ok, they went off for a walk, she fell asleep but then when she woke up she screamed blue murder for 45 mins before I had to go and get her. I have tried again subsequently, but she now will not even let me leave the room, let alone the house. We are trying a new tactic which is that I go over twice a week and stay with her, the plan being that she will soon get so used to it that she wont mind me leaving, but she now wont even let me put herdown when we get there, so its getting worse rather than better. DD knows this friend quite well, so not a complete stranger and she has a DD the same age, so plenty of stimulation etc. I know it's probably just a stage but I am getting deperate, I need to be able to leave her occasionally. Any ideas?

Effie I do a lentil soup with veggies in and just drain the liquid part off then let dd attack with spoon and hands. V messy but good! And it works with green or red lentils. I love quinoa, it looks to me like little flying saucers when it's cooked!

katie - can't really offer any advice but just to say that dd (and lots of the other babies!) took quite a while to get used to nursery which is a similar kind of situation. With dd there was definitely a worse-before-it-got better period, when she seemed to realise that getting in the car with daddy but not mummy meant going to nursery, and that meant not seeing mummy or daddy all day. But then she clicked that actually at nursery there were lots of toys and other babies and people doing far more fun activities than at home, and suddenly it was fine. DD is probably at that stage - she knows you'll leave her, but hasn;t yet learned that this pal will give her lots of attention and playing as well. I guess the short answer to what to do it, you're doing it already and it will just take time. Not really what you want to know!

just going to pop nipper for nap, fingers crossed! and back in a bit

Dasiy: I'd be inclined to do a runner out of the door in the hope that she would settle quickly. I know when DS2 is upset and demanding something from me (i.e. milk at night when I am trying NOT to feed him) it's much better to hand him over to DH then scarper. If I'm in the room or nearby he'll scream, if not he'll settle quickly enough. Though you may be hanging round outside on your mobile for a while to check everything is OK. What does your friend think about it?

effie - thing that's worked for us is rice with lentils/chickpeas. My two both like rice and this is popular. The rice and lentil dish is something I grew up with and I make it fairly highly spiced but the kids seem to be happy with it that way.

Basically what you do is fry an onion and some garlic (as much as 5-6 cloves of garlic - sounds a lot, but really, its better that way). Then add some ground cumin (a generous teaspoon), ground coriander (about half the amount) and some turmeric and fry a bit more. Then you add rinsed through mixture of red split lentils and basmati rice (I usually do half a cup lentils to 1 cup rice) and water to cover and cook on medium heat until the water is virtually all gone. Turn the heat right down at the end and let the rice steam.

The rice is more substantial this way and can either go as an accompaniment to things, or a meal in its own right if you mix it with natural yoghurt, or even with a fried egg on top.

I've done similar things mixing chickpeas and veg into rice. If you don't fancy the spices, you can flavour the rice with tomato paste/sieved tomatoes.

Rubena - I think you need to be a bit thick skinned for the wider mumsnet - it can be a bit of a big game! I think the only frustrating thing with deciding what to do myself is not feeling like I got enough information. What I found is that if you have had a c-section before, the docs are more or less happy to let you choose whether to have another one, or go for VBAC. If you know you want a section, as you do, that's fine. For me (and maybe for you SL?), the trouble was that there are basically 3 possible outcomes i) natural birth; ii) elective section; or iii) another emergency section. For me, i) was the outcome I preferred, but I would rather have had ii) than iii) (mostly because I was concerned about how DD would react if not only I came home with a baby, but was in hospital for a few days and then unable to lift her etc). Trouble is, to decide what to do, I needed to know that a natural birth was more likely than an emergency section - and I have to say, the hospital was not much help on this. As it turned out, I got my VBAC and it definitely suited my situation - I was able to get back home within a day, minimise disruption to DD and also felt much better in myself than after the section (not that I had thought I felt terrible after the C-section at all). But I suspect I would have felt very differently if I had ended up with another emergency op, so I can totally understand not taking the risk. I did do as much research as possible to satisfy myself on my personal odds of a VBAC. SL - i would say that not dilating very far doesn't necessarily mean a horrible long labour second time round. I only got to about 3cm with DD, but it all went pretty smoothly and quickly with DS. Sorry, I'll shut up now. I did get quite exercised about all this at the time!

katie - no advice I'm afraid (my children are scarily overconfident lunatics), but lots of sympathy, that sounds really hard.

daisy - hang in there, we are all thinking of you.

Hello everyone,

Thanks for all your advice on keeping DD hydrated veggie and urbane. No sickness for over 48 hours now so I'm hoping that is the last of it. Sickenss bugs just seem to drag on with DD.

urbane Happy birthday! Hope you had a fantastic day.

kiwi DD is nothing like the baby in 'what to expect...' either! She can stand unaided for a few seconds and walks if you hold her hands but is v wobbly. She seems no where near walking unaided. Although She can do things that they say to expect later, such as pretending to feed her toy rabbit, I'm sure your DD has her own things she is 'advanced' at. It just goes to show how different babies are.

zoe I did chuckle at your little exchange! People keep asking me if DD is walking yet (14 months next week!), and then reassuring me that it doesn't matter. I'm not bothered at all! She'll do it eventually. We've been going to babysigning for a while now and DD can do 'duck' and 'milk'. She did milk furiously on one of the mornings that she was ill. I had given her water as I didn't want to upset her tummy with milk and she just signed furiously until I brought her some. I couldn't resist when she asked for it .

daisy I'm near you so if you wanted anything or to meet up for a chat, just let me know.

rubes Overhang-gate! I think the quality of the scar rests very much with the surgeon. I think you can be left with bulging depending on how you are stiched. My CS scar is beautiful but one of my transplant scars is a bit of a mess and the two bits have been stiched slightly out of synch.

Re veggie meal ideas. DD loves lentils. I make something which is just any vegetables you have inc carrots and onions, a tin of tomtoms, about half a cup of stock, half a cup of red lentils and some tabasco. You simmer it until everything is cooked, put breadcrumbs and cheese on top, grill or oven bake. It is really good. Mmmm might make it for tea.

I just realised that my last post makes me sound like one of THOSE mothers. "No darling L cannot walk but she can alert me to the presence of a duck". .

oooh jolly that lentil idea sounds rather good. Glad to hear the worst of the bug seems to be past.

Argh, I wish that trailer for the baby programme wasn't on this page, every time it appears I well up.

daisy bless dd for her finding nemo comment and it's great that your DH and BIL are talking about their mum, it will be hard but really important to keep the happy memories going even through the grieving time. This week will be very hard as it's the time that it really hits in that she's gone but hopefully after the weekend there can be the start of the next stage of life. Sending you more prayers and hugs.

trace hurrah for Lu, what a star! And for P sleeping through, she'll get the hang of it soon LadyT is almost certainly right about the doc and P, you're just extra-sensitive to that sort of thing at the moment. The doc was probably just embarrassed that she didn't automatically quiet down!

ZJ what do you mean by your comment to effie about personality types... says the librarian nothing wrong with liking things to be properly organised. It's when you've dewey classified your own bookshelf at home that you need to worry!

kiwi/trace the top pulling. Sigh. I've taken to wearing polo necks when it gets really bad. I know that's mean as she just wants comforting but it can be really painful as she has sharp little nails and will reach in and start tweaking my nips in public which isn't really on! Then I try to think "What would WMD say?" and remember she's only doing it because it's her way of feeling close and something she associates with comfort and cuddles. But you're entirely right, it can be a total pain.

urbane belated happy birthday, sounds like you had a gorgeous day!

aubi what a lovely thing for dd to say! The whinging is really hard work isn't it? Sounds as if you're doing your best with a change of scene etc, sometimes there's just no answer.

Well dd seems to be staying asleep after the excitement of our morning signing class. No ducks here , she spent the whole time running around as the other little babies (9 months and under) sat there calmly soaking it all up. And the other mums looked at me with my cereal-and-snot-covered cardy and untidy hair and had that "poor dear" expression in their eyes They'll all be here soon enough!

Ha! JJ - I know that feeling so well. I live in Battersea, so am surrounded by beautifully turned out mothers and I always look a total sight! Honestly! Just went to lovely swimming lessons, but DD was only wearing a fleece and I didn't have a coat on at all as we were in the car to and from and it wasn't really snowing very hard when we set off. When we arrived a few minutes later, the snow was tipping it down and we were woefully underdressed. Oops! Got a few looks! Never mind.

Ho hum. Just looking at some old wedding pics as am selling my wedding dress. Slightly depressed at how thin I was for it and know it'll never happen again!!! I was 9 and a half stone, for goodness sake. SOB!

I feel really tired today, I think the pregnancy hormones are starting to sloosh around. Also a strange desire to watch the 'Feed the Birds' bit of Mary Poppins, which I know would have me in floods of tears It's not just the birds but the scenes of mock London (not that I have ever lived anywhere near St Paul's).

Daisy, just wanted to post this link to some possible funeral poems here

Just also to say that all the chat and tips about how to get protein into infants has been really useful, so thank you. Will try some of those. I have been giving DD her solids BEFORE her formula and it makes quite a big difference. Chickpeas are an inspired idea as she likes eating blueberries and they are about the same size [hopeful]

That sounds like a lovely weekend, Jump...

Jolly, I am crossing fingers that you are at the end of the virus malarkey.

Katie, I am not sure what to suggest, I am so sorry. That sounds very tricky. I think Effie might have a point about the quick exit though...

Invis, your rice/lentil/onion/garlic thing sounds nice. I want some for me! I tend to avoid carbs like rice even though I really love them (I allow myself wholegrain occasionally)...

Beans, just don't even set me off about being slim in the old days. 'Tis my constant and boring refrain. Right, off to placate myself with a coffee and a couple of celery sticks

hey guys, I found this thread last night started by kayzkayz thread. She hasn't been on today and I'm hoping she is alright.

Kayz hope you don't mind me linking to it on here but we are all friends and I think others might not have seen it and might be able to offer better advice than me.

Hope you are okay xx

Effie I have a very nice recipe for quinoa and chickpea pilaf which I can dig out if you like? DD loves it (we're all vegetarian so she gets a lot of beans/lentils/pulses but this is her favourite).

Gosh I just read Kayz thread, oh poor lovely Kayz it all just sounds horrible. Kayz I've always thought your MIL was quite evil, and actually she actually does the same to you as she has obviously always done to your DH, she constantly puts you down and belittles you. Kayz you once mentioned moving away, now DH is looking for work would you revisit that option, you could at least encourage him to look further afield get him away from his mum. You know there is a toyota factory near Derby.

We Jolly you really made me giggle with the senario of DD alerting you to re presence of ducks. So funny.

ZJ I was telling DH about the evil boys mother at you BS class and he felt a good response would have been, 'well my child will live longer!' you can't beat girls life expectancy averages.

Well I took DS2 to the consutatiebureau today all was fine, the were a bit slap dash with doing his height and weight and I'm pretty sure they are both wrong , unless he really has grown nearly 10cm in the last 3 months but they were happy with him, he did all the things he should and apparently he is very advanced socially because he acts coy & shy as a way to gain attention which I thought was funny. So ladies forget your walking and talking children my child is socially advanced, because be has perfected the art of flirting through acting coy. He gets it from his brother, who learnt it from his father. He also had to get another BCG and pneumovax and started his HepB course. Unfortunately I had to take DS1 with me because of the time if the appt and he got really upset when DS2 had his imms, oops hadn't thought of that. He needs more too as he has to have the hepB, so that'll be fun, I think it might be time for DH to do some jabs duty. We walked home from the clinic which though freezing was lovely as finally DS1 seems to be able to walk longer distances ie more than 2meters, without whining about how tired he is. It was really nice, we just slowly strolled home and chatted about all sorts of stuff. DS2 is a bit grizzly tonight but they both ate well at dinner with no coaxing hooray. I should go to yoga tonight but couldn't be arsed should stay home in case DS2 is unsettled.

Loving all these recipes.

Better go talk to my husband.

Hi folks, wow, am also v impressed with all these recipes, makes me realise I should feed him more plant derived protein though not right now as we are still mid- bottygate. He pooed twice on the carpet this morning, then weed in the hallway. Don't ask how, makes me sound like a right div. Maybe he's marking his territory.

That's great that DS2 ticks all the Dutch social boxes (he'll go down a hit there, they're not a nationality famed for their coyness ) and you had some good quality time with DS1.

Katie can totally empathise with you, T is at that stage at the mo and it's very frustrating. He's even got that way with his dad, which I know DP finds upsetting. I am hoping it's a phase that will pass soon, and depending on your nerves could be a question of toughing it out or maybe going to see your friend more often, leaving DD five minutes the first day, 10 the second, 20 the third etc. That's how they did settling in at the nursery and it seemed unnecessarily intensive but really worked for us.

Artichoke, Gnocchi and Parmesan bake

Makes 4 servings
Prep time: 15 minutes
Cooking time: 15 minutes
Total time: 30 minutes
Ingredients

• 1 medium red onion
• 25g butter, plus extra for greasing
• half a lemon
• 150g parmesan
• 50g bread (brown or white)
• handful fresh parsley
• 250 ml white wine
• 2 x 400g cans artichoke hearts
• 500g ready made fresh gnocchi
• 200g creme fraiche

Instructions

1. Preheat oven to 200 degrees
2. Peel and slice onion, Melt the butter in a heavy-based pan and fry the onion for about 7 mins until soft
3. While the onion is cooking, grate the zest of the half lemon and squeeze out its juice. Chop, grate or whizz the bread into breadcrumbs. Roughly chop the parsley and grate the Parmesan
4. Add the wine to the onion, turn up the heat and reduce the wine to about half.
5. Meanwhile, drain the artichokes and cut them in half. Add them to the onion along with the gnocchi, creme fraiche, lemon zest and juice, parsley, half the Parmesan and salt and pepper. Stir well, allow the mixture to warm through for a couple of minutes then remove from the heat.
6. Grease an ovenproof dish big enough to hold all the ingredients.
7. Tip the gnocchi and artichoke mixture into the dish and top with the breadcrumbs and the remaining Parmesan. Bake for 15-20 mins or until golden brown and bubbling.
8. Serve with peas or broad beans.

Bugger,I typed some stuff before that and must have copied and pasted over it!!
Only said that above recipe is not high protein, just that before all that chat a couple of you asked for it. It is really easy and good in that it's almost all storecupboard stuff and so easy to make without too mcuh planning ahead.

Funny Spot, how does DP find the Dutch to work with.

Also forgot to say the Doctor was also really chuffed that I was still BFing DS2, she seemed almost relieved that I was still BFing and said it was so good but so unusual these days. I thought of you guys and felt like saying 'well actually I know several ladies who still feed' but didn't think it was necessary. I was actually wandering how many of us there are still BFing and wander how it compares with UK stats.