Dec 08 it's time for sippy, tippy and doidy cups (& wee sticks!?!)

[Veggiemummy]

sorry could think of much and these where discuss on last page.

DS still won't eat lumps But having said that he 'eats'(more like sucks half to death) lumps of cheese, toast, bread sticks, crackers, smiley face, and apple cores, pears strawberries if they aren't offered on a spoon. Maybe he would be better on BLW . I did try it with DD and had a horrific experience when she got some apple lodged in her throat. I was frantic trying to get her out of the highchair and smacking her on the back. She was actually choking rather than gagging. Having said all that it was the only time it happened, and DS fairs better than she did with his finger foods!

Kayz hooray for a sleeping Dylan!

Spiggy, I hope DS's op goes okay today.

I have a very sore knee today after perhaps running too hard on it last night and again this morning...I think I need to rest it for a couple of days.

Daisy I don't think I answered your question about resting between runs. Ideally a days rest between would be good but it's difficult when you need to take your chances to run when you can. For now as your building up I would say just try to have a least 2 days off from running a week but when you start running longer times I would try to have a least 3 days off. Also don't increase you running times by more than 10% per week as it will increase your chance of injury. If you do feel you want to exercise more do something else on your rest day like cycling or swimming, something that uses different muscles at least.

Thinking of you Spiggy, I think i'd be a mess if DS1 had to have surgery, I've got a terrible fear of GA's. Poor little mite, lots of cuddles from veggie central.

Well my nerves now have to cope with a further strain, DS2 can now climb stairs. We have a door at the bottom of the stairs but we put carpet in so the door needs planning(sp) so we can close it properly. Will have to sort out some stairgates.

Spiggy: will be thinking of your DS and you - it will be horrid leaving him but MN is a great distraction at these times. There's always someone about at the most unsocial times, though they may be talking about stuff you rather not consider at 2am!

Kayz that's great. Very pleased for you

Spiggy much hugs, sure everything will be fine and he will enjoy all the TLC afterwards.

Dd not crawling yet but doing a very good job of getting on her knees and pushing herself backwards then screaming in anger because she just got further away from what she was trying to reach. Like Effie's ds though she does some good tummy spinning. Spin, shuffle, roll, spin No Daisy NO! It's William's! No Daisy NO! Let go Daisy! Mummy!

Veggie I can't believe he can climb stairs! Your poor heart!

Dd eats pretty much anything , just gums away at it. I just cut things into chunks, slice strawberries or grapes in half etc. She hardly even gags anymore unless she has tried to swallow a big bit of tomato skin but she is an expert at just getting it right out.

I'm hoping that someone from the HV is going to drop in sometime next week to talk about sleep. I need a fresh perspective as dd is just hopeless. Ds has been a bit up and down too, Ithink partly because he is at an annoying in between needing a nap and not needing one stage. After the terrible night 2 nights ago he had a 4 hour nap yesterday to catch up (and got very confused, woke up asking for breakfast!). Today I woke him after an hour and a half. Hopefully that is enough but not too much, left to himslef he easily sleeps for 2 or 3 hours which is very nich but not when he then won't sleep at night! I miss the days of a 3 hour nap followed by 13 hours at night!

Hi all, I have just got back from a lovely morning having a massage and reflexology (finally cashing in a voucher I got for my birthday), it was fab and I am floating around now in a lovely serene state. MIL has been with DD and she had 2 courses for her lunch (unheard of) and is still napping now, an hour and a half later (also, pretty much unheard of) ? I think MIL can do childcare more often

Veggie and Jolly you both sound like you had a great time away. I wish we had another holiday planned so I can look forward to it!

Hurrah for the sleeping Kayz

Thanks for the info on night terrors Indith and Spiggy, the cuddle does seem to relax DD so I?ll keep on administering hugs and hope they don?t get worse. I do really feel for your DS?s, and for you too, as if they?re asleep they?re probably not aware of it but its you who gets the brunt of it

Daisy at your DH ? if you wanted some relaxation surely you?d be going back to work for those 6 weeks!

How are you managing with your Dad WG? I hope he?s a good patient, I think looking after my Dad would be much harder than looking after DD! E also likes to test her voice ? her happy noise is a very high pitched ?eeeeee? sound, I?m surprised we don?t have lots of dogs sat outside our house and howling sometimes

LadyT sorry to hear about your DP?s liver, but good timing I suppose as you now have company on the wagon

Hello again JJ! Your DD has progressed so much recently and sounds to be just lovely

I hope your DS has a quick recovery Spiggy and isn?t too sore after the op

I think I have solved the puzzle of all those miracle babies in RL who sleep through ? DH was chatting to a friend of his who also has a 7 mo DD, and his update included ?gaining lots of weight, eating lots, sleeping through from 7 til 7?. DH said that DD is still waking in the night and we?ve had a couple of screamy episodes recently, to which his friend replied ?our DD wakes once or twice too?. So there you go, people only mention bedtime and get up time, and not what goes on in the middle ? we?re just too honest. Therefore I am happy to report that DD sleeps 7.30 til 6.30 every night

Off to check on DD now, she?s still asleep, I wonder if MIL put some sleeping pills in her lunch ...

hello all again - just briefly while she's napping - hello spiggy! sorry to hear your ds has had to have an operation, sure all will be well and he'll be fine. Is adenoids one where you get lots of ice cream as part of the recovery?

Well, we've just ordered a playpen to keep dd in vague safety I'm sure it's against all the attachment parenting ideas but if I turn my back she's trying to eat the tv cable and I'm just not patient enough at distracting her at the mo. again

LadyT, thanks for the meet tipoff, will certainly give it a try.

zj - sleeping through, humph indeed! The two times dd managed it she was up at 6am. Last night was back to the usual waking at 11.30 and 4. Sigh. Still, it means I get a little cuddle with her [desperatley looking for a silver lining]

exercise people - I accidentally promised last night to do the London-Cambridge bike ride this time next year with a friend. Very unlikely to be up to SL's speedy skills, but I do enjoy biking and it will be great to get fit again! Plus a bit of time out in the evenings to ponder the world while dd's asleep can only be a good thing.

right - the beast awakens... how do they know? are they all psychic?!

jj: a good tip I heard is to use a playpen to protect anything fragile (like the telly) so they are flexible!

Hello everyone,

arti Thanks for the dentist info. I won't be booking DD an appointment just yet then! I was v impressed by you and your DD sharing a salmon steak, very sophisticated .

indith You are very lucky to live in Northumberland, it is so beautiful.

effie I take DD to Tiny Talk baby signing classes. The signs are taught through songs so it is nice and relaxed, no flip chart or flash cards! DD really enjoys it and gets excited when we arrive. I can't say she has actually signed anything yet though!!

ladyT I keep seeing mothers in that mac and wonder if they are secret lurkers on the thread .

spiggy How did the op go? Hope everything went well.

JJ My friend had the babydan playpen that opens out to form a room divider so they could keep their DS confined the half of the room without the electrical stuff.

DH is away on a course till late on Friday night so I'm making the most of my first evening by settling down with Heat magazine and a chocolate orange. Trashy gossip, sugar and fat, what could be better?!

thanks for all the lovely messages about DS's op. Can I just say aaaaaaaarrrrrrgggghhhh though? DS had his op and all went smoothly, septic adenoids removed and within an hour he was up and running around. The annoying bit is that I have been telling the medics for well over 18 months that his tonsils are bad. Everytime I get told that they are fine (in that exceptionally annoying don't be a hysterical mother tone). Today I got called down to meet the surgeon after M's op who calmly informed me that his tonsils are enormous and blocking his throat when he lies down so he will book him in for 10 weeks so he can have them removed. Why didn't they listen in the first place and why couldn't they have done it all at the same time? Ah well, he has promised me that once that is done he will sleep much better- think maybe I should get that in writing?

JB- chocolate orange mmmmmm. I think I will have to make do with the chocolate chips I use for cake making. Good job I bulk buy them to eat when I'm desperate

Oh JB I want chocolate. I've got Ocado coming tomorrow and my usual butterscotch G&B but that won't be available til tomorrow night.

I made a little curry tonight for the boys and DS2 ate more than DS1. He such a good eater, we discovered he loves rice on the weekend when he ate half of DH's dinner of rice and curry. To be fair I think DS1 is not quite himself as he's not eaten much today and was a bit teary going to bed.

Veggie I have some G&B butterscotch, I will have a piece for you

Spiggy aarrgh indeed about the tonsils, but not long to wait for good sleeping!

Spiggy I cross posted with you that's annoying about the tonsils, I have to say it's strange that they didn't look at the tonsils before usually tonsils and adenoids to together. It's quite cruel to make him go through all that again.

I think it was because they don't look infected, just large so the junior docs said it wasn't necessary. Surgeon today was head honcho who said tonsils that big are bound to cause trouble, especially when lying down. Am strangely relieved. I know that it is another op but I had bad tonsils and remember how much better I felt without them so would rather they were out. Doc reckoned his poor sleep from birth is linked in with this so I feel better about that as well!

As DS is in hospital overnight i have set the travel cot up in his room and am trying DD on her own for the first time. Wish me luck!

spiggy glad to hear all is well, gah though about the tonsils poor lamb. Hope all goes well with dd in her new room. When's her birthday? (missed your arrival, sorry!)

well we're mighty fed up, we have a hard drive for saving everything off the laptop onto in case it got nicked/struck by lightning - so weren't too worried when lo it did get nicked, thought "it's ok, we've got a backup" (and the insurance is covering the cost of the replacement). Turns out that for some reason that the manufacturers can't explain, it hasn't backed up any videos since February so we've lost all the films of dd with the scottish family, learning to roll, burbling to herself etc etc totally gutted. But then again we do have dd herself, musn't grumble I guess.

Browsing back briefly - Paris meet up?! What inspired that? If it is happening we might be able to turn up, we're driving to S of France in Sept so might coincide?

hello.
welcome back JJ Grrr about the backup.
spiggy sorry you have to go through more surgery with your ds but at least as you say that should really help in the long term. Your brave boy needs some treats me feels
Now if you don't want to listen to a sleep deprived 'me' post please skip this

well it's 5.20 and i can't sleep. I am so utterly tired at the moment but my head is whirring so I've come downstairs so I don't disturb dh with all my tossing and turning. I got my blood results back and all is well apart from low iron stores. My Hb is fine so I'm not anaemic, it's just the reserves that are low, and according to the gp, that shouldn't make you feel tired, but he said his experience says otherwise and that he often finds that people who are very tired end up with normal bloods apart from low iron stores. So I guess it's just a bit of that and a lot of sleep deprivation...
I'm struggling
We've been trying to settle P at night without a feed. We managed to get 2 nights where she woke a few times between 7 and midnight and dh settled her with cuddles after about 15 mins crying, then I fed her at 1 or 2ish then she slept till 6.30. But then I wonder if getting her out and cuddling her several times a night is actually any better than feeding her several times a night? HV came today because I asked her to, to talk it all through. Her main points were:
*she shouldn't physically need a feed through the night (so she won't starve without it)
*I should feed her if she wakes 10ish then not feed her till morning
*Instead of cuddling her, just leave her in the cot and pat her - she'll know I'm there but isn't getting the cuddles (so hopefully will figure it isn't worth waking up for a pat!)
*try to ditch the dummy because it's just another thing we're getting up for
*do the same with day naps (patting if won't settle)
*give it a couple of weeks of being consistent otherwise it's not worth trying.
It's all sensible advice and was all given in a gentle suggestion way, not a you must do this way.
Discussed it with dh who dismissed it all as common sense and asked why I needed a HV to tell me that. It's hard for him because we seem to decide on a strategy (dh go in and settle so my boobs aren't near her) then I go in after 5 minutes of screaming and say I want to feed her - so he gets the bad bit, then I come in and 'rescue' her and undermine what we're both trying to do. I don't want to do it but I'm so bad at this.
So...last night she woke at 8.30pm and was screaming with rage so I fed her. DH asked why I was feeding her and I just cried and said because she was screaming. He said "she only just started - that wasn't even 2 minutes" - and he was right but I felt totally unable to listen to her scream like that. Put her back to bed then she woke at 10pm (settled with dh cuddles), 11.30 (ditto), 2am (ditto - but 30 minutes crying) then 4am - so I fed her then. She's back asleep but I've been awake since then with it all going round in circles.
We're going to my parents' house today for a few days so I don't want to try anything new while we're there, but I think when we get back we'll have to do something. I can't go to work on this little sleep. I'm thinking Lucy could go and stay with my parents on her own for a few days so we can try leaving P to cry without it affecting L, and also we can sleep in the day when P does rather than entertaining L.
On Saturday it's our 10th wedding anniversary. The plan was to go out for dinner as the girls we'll all be at my parents', but after her waking so upset at 8.30 (so only 1.5 hours sleep) there's no way I can go out and leave her. Perhaps we could do a lunch out because P can do without me in the day as long as she has other snacks.
arti when you had Mrs Sleep, you said night 2 was horrendous. What happened? How bad was it? I think I'd like to hear it, so that I can tell myself that if it's really terrible, it will get better - IYSWIM?
I'm really sorry about this long, dull post.
P really is such a delight and so very smiley and happy in the day and I know how blessed we are with her and I wouldn't change her for the world, but I'm at a loss with the nights.
not sure whether I'll be able to MN while we're away so if I'm quiet for a few days that's why. Sorry not to do personals. Must try to go back to bed although L will be up soon...

Hi Trace, I havent been on for a while, I've been so busy. I hope you are sleeping now. I can sympathise about trying to work while sleep deprived and I also keep putting off any form of "sleep training" as you might call it, as a result.

I dont have much to offer other than my thoughts, the only suggestion that might help is a baby monitor with music ? We have one of these that I used for DS1 when he was a bit older than this and woke in the night. He went to sleep in the evening to the music and if he woke in the night we put it on (remotely) from our room and it seemed to help him go off again if there was no problem. This means either of you could do it and you dont have to get out of bed ? Could she be teething and thats why she needs the comfort ?

My HV always said that babies dont need night feeds after 6 months. I dont know whether this is really true is it ?

Hope everyone else is Ok, Spiggy hope you DS is making a fast recovery...

Hello Trace I just wanted to say I'm so so sorry for this shitty situation and I totally get the "rescuing" (people always say that like it's a bad thing when it's the most instinctive thing you could do). Sounds like a good idea for L to stay with your parents so you can concentrate totally on P.
I hope you manage to do something that feels right on Saturday, and can enjoy the day - congratulations in advance! Maybe a Mrs Sleep or equivalent might do the trick, esp if it's from someone who knows P and everything so what they recommend is properly tailored for you.
I have no real advice (as you prob know T is not Master Sleep in these parts) but really hope you can find something that works.

Trace, I'm so you are having such a tough time. I wish I had some magic words or solution that could sort it all out for you, but alas I don't.

I've heard that they don't need to be fed in the night at this age but, would you leave your baby 10/12 hours during the day without food? That's the reason why I still feed DS in the night (3 bottles last night to be precise. The way I see it is DS is only 8 months, he's only just realised day from night but you can't reason with a crying baby ay 3am that 'you won't starve if I don't feed you for the next 4 hours' He wants mlk - simple. I don't care what any HV says about what babies should or shouldn't do.

If you are going to go for leaving her to cry for longer (I'm a wimp on this front too) then leaving L with the GP's sounds like a very good idea. At least if the night is bad you can catch some sleep during the daytime.

Sorry no help but sending lots of love and support. I know that you will find a way through this trace.

Crikey Trace, sounds so gruelling I only wish I could come up with something you haven't tried. I think you do brilliantly to look after your girls so well and keep everything going on so little sleep. Truly. Please remember that everyone on here is cheering you on and has endless sympathy for your predicament (same for everyone suffering sleep probs). The basket is always here! I hope you can manage to have a lovely time on Saturday whatever you decide to do. You and your DH deserve a treat.

NJAN - I was wondering where you had got to!

Spiggy - glad DS is ok after his op but sorry about the tonsils. I'd be spitting tacks...it's naughty of them not to take you seriously when you mentioned his tonsils before. I had my tonsils and adenoids out when I was 11, so quite old. Hope he is feeling better soon. It must have been hugely stressful for you.

Anyway, the Dec Ladies White Light has triumphed again as I spoke to the surveyor and he has given the thumbs up for the house. The couple who were buying it at first then dropped out due to THEIR survey are regretting their decision and keep badgering the vendor to accept their (higher) offer, so I won't rest until we have exchanged. At the moment the vendor won't as she now considers them very flaky, but I hope that won't change...

It was nice to have a night out in London town. I could really do with a day at home working today but I am going into Oxford to take my late DH's dad for lunch. I tend to see him once a week or every other week and speak to him most days, as he lives alone and gets terribly lonely, and considers me a daughter. DP is utterly brilliant with him, which is really nice, as it could've been awkward. I struggled to tell him about DP for ages, and then also about being pregnant, but it's all easy now.

Veggie, your DS2 is so advanced physically! Amazing. DD is a long way off crawling I think, but we have always been really poor at giving her tummy time as she hates it However, I have a spot at the moment and she is fascinated by it - keeps exclaiming and putting her finger on it. Maybe she's going to be a beauty therapist.

Oh Trace love. It's so hard, and esepcially with another child to be thinking of. Don't feel bad about it, like spot says, you just want to help your baby stop crying - WMD would say you're doing the best possible thing according to your natural responses. You need to be taking care of yourself as well as everyone else, is there anything you can get to help with the iron if that will give you a bit more strength?

TBH we're finding exactly the same thing with nights, we're trying to persuade dd to get back to sleep withoutlots of help but I just rush in. When she wakes in the night and goes beyond just burbling a bit, we've found it's much easier to settle her if I go straight in at first sign of upset. Takes about 5 mins of cuddle or quick boob (she's not usually actually hungry, just wants a little top-up and a cuddle). If dh goes in she usually escalates to crying pretty quickly (!) and then I can't leave her like that for more than a few minutes so go in, 'rescue' her (or is it him?!) and then she takes about an hour to be properly calm and asleep. We're not sure how to resolve it tbh, he's keener to leave her to cry and settle herself but it's just never ever worked for us, the longest we left her on her own was 15 mins (ouch) and she was uttely distraught and took an age to be calmed down, let alone back to sleep.

It's great that you've got GPs nearby who can help out - could they take L for a day even if you're not doing anything different at night, just to help you catch up a bit on rest?

Oh, and JJ I meant to say sorry about your pics. What a shame.

one handed so will be brief - Trace I have lots of spatone left from preg which I'd happily send if you email me your address? I have a new one which is my real name as all one word @ btinternet.com. On the email list I am vanessa something, so put my surname on, add btinternet rather than nasty virgin media and bob is ineed your father's brother . Spatone always lifts me (that and wine) so let me send it to you. Huge hugs, its rotten being that shattered and I really feel for you.

Hello to everyone else

WMD??? Weapon of mass destruction???

Trace I think you have to ask yourself do you want to get her out of the boob to settle habit or not. If you don't then toy have to accept the sleepiness and look at other ways of getting sleep, going to bed earlier or naps (difficult in school holidays I know). If not you and DH have to draw up a battle plan and you have to stick to it, but you need to express to him how difficult it is to listen to her crying. For me if DS2 cries more than just a little normal sleepy cry it gives me an unbearable pain in my chest. When I explained this to DH when we were having trouble with DS1's sleep as a baby it helped him to understand where I'm coming from. I have to say I fretted about it all with DS1 and wish now I had just gone with the flow and had him bed with us from day dot and just fed him when he needed (as we've done with DS2 who ironically sleeps through...not sure if there is something in that), in the end we commited to me not getting up to DS1 and only DH did, it took weeks to settle him but in the end he did get our of the boob habit but it was lots lack of sleep for both of us and we only had him to deal with at the time. The crazy thing is after we had sorted it out, DH actually realized he liked havng DS1 in with us and we decided he may as well sleep with us as he is only a baby for a short period, but by then he was out of the overnight feed thing anyone so it was still a lot easier.

Hooray on the house survey Lady, I'm really pleased, your seller is right to not go with the others I hate being messed about and would rather go with people I liked if I was selling a house.

I think our boys are just quite physical, if you saw my DH you'd see it probably genetics, apart from having the bod of a 20 year old he is like a puppy, he doesn't stop bouncing or doing pushups or chin ups or handstands. Our friends call him sporticus because he just keep doing exercis, he can't just sit on the couch like I can. The down side is I have to be fit to keep up with his offspring, the upside is when he is around he is more than happy to help them run off their energy, he takes them to the park way more than I do! I don't think they'll be very cerebral though, I think they got out bouncy genes. We have friends who are Cambridge grads and all that whose son barely moved until 1 but who will be writing his first thesis by 5 I'm sure.

Hello,

Trace You poor thing you. I think Veggie is right. You need to sit down with your DH and work out a plan. Once you have worked it out you need to stick to it. There can be no deviations from this. That is what we have had to do and last night D slept from 7pm to 5.30am. We don't feed him over night now. One of us will just go in, pat him, maybe say "shhhh" and then leave him again.

Hope you work something out soon.

Hello all,

Sorry for making you all crave chocolate. I made myself feel quite sick on chocolate orange.

JJ What a terrible shame about the videos. Make some more as in five years when your DD watches herself rolling she won't mind it wasn't the first time. We have hardly any vids due to DH's enthusiasm for film camera, developing his own films, and slides. DD will think she was born in the 1970s when we set up the projector to show her her baby pics .

trace It is not surprising that you are exhausted after months and months of interuppted sleep. I have a story for you which is meant to be reasurring as my friends DS sleeps fantastically now BUT as a baby he was very much like P. My friend did everything she could to avoid doing any sort of CC but did eventually have to do the shush/pat not picking him up thing and although it was difficult at the time, it only took 3 days for him to get the idea and stop waking. That said I feel exactly the same as you when DD cries I just want to go and stop it, DH however can put her down for a nap and listen to her whine/cry and not go in. DH always gets her to have a nap whereas I will rush in and fuss, reapply dummy etc. Perhaps if you are going to do a form of sleep training then your DH can be at the helm and you will have to be really determined to hold back. My friend only did the sleep training when she went back to work and realised that she couldn't work on such disturbed sleep. She felt sick with exhaustion - we don't want that happening to you.

On another note, can I just ask something about your new job? I told DH that you'd got a new job as a school nurse (he asks about you all ) and in his school they had a nurse there permanently. I thought you'd be going round different schools, we didn't have a nurse in school all the time. It was a tiny rural school though. Will you be a travelling nurse or staying in the one school?

spiggy Why on earth did they not remove them at the same time, madness?!

LadyT I'm really glad it all worked out well with your late DH's dad and your DP and O. O will have an extra Grandpa figure which is just lovely. I had three sets of grandparents with my real dads parents (inc my dad's step father), my step dads parents and my mums parents. I loved it, the more the merrier! It didn't matter to me that I wasn't actually related to half of them!

It hasn't got light here properly yet and we had hail earlier. Hail in July !

I was looking on amazon before and one of my recommended items was Cliff Richards autobiography! They must have me pipped as a real mover and shaker .

Right MUST go do some tidying.