Dec 08 mums - embuggerance to it all - sleep or no sleep we love our babes

[waitinggirl]

i hope people don't mind, i took the bull by the horns and did it. title a bit naff, but more important the thread exists rather than search for a better title. hope i haven't stolen anyone's thunder...

Daisy: you must be exhausted. I'm sure children conspire together to cause maximum disruption.

Spot: I'm sure you'll have a great time and T will be fine. A warning: you may find he sleeps beautifully ofr your DP ands you have to resist throwing a gigantic strop on the subject when you get back

Verso: fab fab fab news on the job! That'll show them!

Well I tried DS2 on some homemade porridge this morning and his face! Not impressed at all. May try soaking in apple juice first - any recipes? I was planning on cheating and using the packet stuff, but the only ones I could find here have loads of added sugar and things like vegetable oil . Took me ages to find rice cakes that weren't laden with extra stuff as well. Never thought I'd be missing Fresh & Wild

Well done Verso - am so pleased for you.

And Daisy I agree with Effie - somehow they seem to know when the worst time is...hope your day gets better

Good luck for tonight Spot how lovely to have some proper time with your friends. Am going on a hen weekend next week - which will be most time I've spent away from DCs since DS was born. Gulp.

Effie have just panicked about our porridge - but Organix first looks ok - although does have cows milk powder so if you're trying to avoid that no good. I spent most of my last maternity pay in F&W. Ridiculous.

Baby awakes. Sigh. Was hoping to catch up properly. Agree with SL about Nigel Slater. I find his kitchen diaries really good because it's often food you feel like eating at that time of year (unsurprisingly) and always quick and easy and my copy of Nigella Lawson's Feast is falling apart at the seams. Hugh Fearnley-W's meat book is excellent.

And fathers day. Yes. I had bought DH a lovely bottle of whisky that I carefully chose from a shop I shlepped to yesterday with the beans. Only someone then nicked my bag when we stopped in a cafe. Also had all my carefully chosen borough market food for the weekend. Was really fed up, and then just grateful that it wasn't my purse/house keys/fab new sunglasses. I only hope the they ate all the food rather than throw it out [Lal imagines thief's life turning around with first taste of neal's yard cheddar]

Have lovely weekends all.

Hello kids,

I am feeling cheerier so thank you for the kind words, though did have big fat row with DP last night about division of labour "I am not your mother, picking up after you"/"I didn't sign up to be a housewife" - all that sort of rubbish. But all ok now...Though I know it will come up again. I do all the housework and I don't think it's fair. It's not like he works 9-5, he often has days off or works for a half day only.

Busy weekend - off to a party today (one of those ones that starts as an afternoon bbq then goes on through) then cricket tomorrow at posh London ground (exciting, one of the oldest wickets in the country). DD is coming to all of this, my little pal. As of course is DP!

Trace - scary about that bloke just coming out of prison. Yikes. For your survey, DD was 6lb 12oz born and is now about 15 or 16lb. She is 7 months on 25th June, so next week. She is not a very big baby but certainly not skinny.

Syb...are you feeling brighter? I am so sorry to hear about the redundancy worries. AND the health worries. You know we are all thinking of you and crossing our fingers like mad.

Kayz - sympathies about the wrist - my post natal arthritis really affects my right wrist and I know I need to see a rheumatologist but can't face it at the mo. Hope you feel better.

Lal - that journey from Derbyshire sounds grim-o. But French motorways are lovely, skimming away to the sun...Does your DS like minty things? Mints are so good for alleviating travel sickness. Sorry about the bag snatch. I hope they appreciate your gourmet fare...

Effie - great that the CM is sorted. Er, good luck with the home brew. Brave!

Arti - further to what Zoe said, given that I cried until I was 2, my Mum must've left me to cry many times (will ask her) and I think I am pretty well balanced and cheerful.

JJ - super news about your friend's baby. I am getting so excited about Henley. DP can't accompany me any more as he has got to do a trial in Winchester, but I have asked my late DH's dad and he is SO excited too.

Verso - Huzzah for the new job! That is good news! When might you start?

PD - I am off to Lake Garda. Just me and DD, and my Mum and her DP. I take them somewhere every year. 'Twill be lovely. The meat question is indeed a vexed topic. I hate talking about my vegetarianism (I find it sort of stale) but DP isn't a veggie so I have so said that I am fine with her eating fish and chicken when she is ready (as long as organic etc) but I'd rather red meat was kept to a minimum.

Veggie - what are your plans re: the above? (And any other veggies on here)

Indith - ooh, so when are you having the massage?

Daisy - your poor old sausage, I hope you are getting some more rest. And MomorMum.

ZJ - Father's Day - I have bought him a book to read to DD called My Dad and I have put a photo in a frame for him of me and DD. I am hoping this is adequate! I did laugh about Summer suggesting that most blokes would fancy a plasma tv. Ha. My DP is a blokey bloke. I have never had a boyfriend as blokey as him before. He thinks my friends who are boys who live in London are, for the most part, only part blokes and mutters darkly about them carrying 'man bags' and the like.

Spot - hope the camping goes really well. You could do with a break. I hope WG is having a nice break too.

Right, must go and pack and get our clothes ready (all I ever seem to do).

Congrats on the job verso! That is fab!

Effie the babbling must be so cute. Must admit I'm looking forward to that, though ds still talks plenty of gibberish so dd's cute raspberries are good enough for now. Love the home brew, apparently FIL was once a champion ginger beer exploder and random fruit wine maker.

zj I hope he grows out of them, they are so much better than they were so I suppose just wait and see.

Daisy I hope you get some rest, why do children seem to think tag teaming is the way forwards?

Dh has a card made by ds, a card from dd that was chosen by ds because it has a spider on it. (It is one aimed at gardening dads, wellies, watering cans etc. Dh hates gardening, the veg patch is mine but when I tried to steer him towards something else I got "no mummy I wanna da one with da spider!"), a book mark ds made at creche and a box of liquorish allsorts because they were half price That sounds mean, liquorish allsorts are dh's weakness, he loves them, but if they hadn't been half price he's have probably had to make do with the bookmark

Last night did not go well. I've been trying to convince dh that what is said at night doesn't count . After 2.5 hours of pupd dd had slept for less than 5 mins and was screaming her head off. I was in floods of tears, grabbed her off dh and fed her to sleep. She fed back to sleep when she stirred for most of the night then refused the breast and after another round of tears and shouting at each other we gave her the dummy.

I think I just went way beyond breaking point. I just don't know what to do and I don't even know if I'm going anywhere near the right way to go about it. She goes off to sleep so happily with a dummy, it is just that she wakes every half hour to an hour and I don't know if it is because it falls out or what and then as the night goes on I don't know if she is crying for dummy or feed. I am a short tempered bitch at the moment and have no patience for the dcs or anything else for that matter.

Oh indith hon, you have my symapthies. I'd love to offer some advice but sadly I don't know what it could be why she keeps waking. I can't even figure DS out. If its any consolation we too row in the small hours over what is the best course of action.

His Lordship is curently asleep in the car on the drive, after only having an hours nap since 4am. So the windows are down and I keep running out every 5 mins to check he isn't screaming his head off.

Thankfully my wonderful mum (who I thought was working today) came this morning and took the DC's giving me a glorious 2.5 hour sleep! I am feeling so much better. Who knows what tonight will bring though.

ladyt Enjoy the party and good luck for the cricket tomorrow.

So many great posts to catch up on, but just wanted to quickly say to Indith, I have been there and feel your pain. Not sure if it might be helpful re: dummy, but we tried to ditch it a couple of months ago and it went terribly. Similar to what you are describing. Just seemed much too awful. So we gave it back and started doing the No Cry Sleep Solution gentle removal plan (i.e. Pantley pull off). We also kept giving him muslin cloths to suck on during this time. After a month or so of doing the pull off and giving him muslins to suck on, it was much much easier to ditch it cold turkey finally. This time there was no more than 10 minutes or so of shouting for the dummy (same can't be said for when I tried to use PU/PD to ditch one of the night feeds...1.5 hour screaming battle...I gave up and fed). So don't feel bad if this isn't the right time for the dummy ditching - you could try a couple of weeks of the gentle removal plan and then try cold turkey again after that? Either way, it is a nightmare I know. I really feel for you!

Daisy can you put a baby monitor in the car, so you relax a little and enjoy the break.

sorry those getting little sleep and imsomniacs. This is going to sound selfish because I'm actually getting sleep overnight, but I'm shattered today. When DH is home I usually get a little time in bed without DS2 and I think it's the deepest sleep and the most relaxed time of the day. I'm really missing it at the mo, both boys are up around 6.30am which isn't too early, but it is for me. Also we went to a really lovely park today, the Derby Arboretum (aparently the first recreational park in the UK very nice) with a friend and her 2 kids. They are similar ages to mine and the older DS's have known each other since babies and love each other but her DS is a real hitter and when he gets grumpy and frustrated he hits DS1. It's been happening for a while and we always assumed he would grow out of it. He also randomly just screeches, lately it makes DS2 cry so when he did it today I asked him to try not to scream or yell too loud as of scares J, and he immediately went right up to DS2 and screamed at him!!! I feel bad to be finding this all too much but I feel like my poor boys are under attack when we are with them. The other day he slapped DS2's legs while he was asleep in the hugabub and woke him up. I try to restrain myself and not tell him off because, well I feel it's nor my place, but I think I'm going to lose it with this kid soon. DH & I are quite against violence and smacking but feel this is hard to reinforce and express to DS1 when his own friend hits him. Today was extra hard as I was tired, but I'm starting to think I will have to keep DS1 away from him until he calms down. How would any of you feel if a friend told you child off or at least spoke in a stern voice?(of course this is hypothetical as all you children are impeccably behaved). DS1 is quite popular at school and has loads of other friends so I don't think this is effecting his self esteem but it does upset him and he even says to his friend 'why do you hit me, I'm your friend' which breaks my heart. It is really difficult as they are close friends.

Lady, DH and I are both veggie but we aren't against people eating meat we just don't like meat production methods and believe that meat is becoming too much of a burden on the environment, (having said that if DH's gluten intolerance doesn't settle down we may have to rethink that). We kept DS1 veggie until he was 2.5 then kind of gave him the choice. He has always been real protein lover, loves tofu and lentil etc. So I guess when we introduced meat he loved it and given the choice of vegetables or meat he'd take the meat everytime. However, we only buy organic lamb, free range turkey and organic pork mince at the moment, oh and locally made sausages. We are able to get so much of his meat from local farm shops which is great and I pretty much make everything from scratch, meat balls, sausage rolls, fish in beer (sparklingwater) batter so he only has non organic free range meats when we go to restaurants. He resently has gotten in prawns as he had them in tempura batter at a Japanese restaurant. This is tricky one as most King prawns are quite badly farmed. I think it's something you need to talk about. It depends on who will cook it too and how you feel about cooking meat? Whatever you do don't start a thread on MN about it as you'll get your head bitten off for even entertaining the idea of allowing DP to give her meat. As I said I'm not against meat itself, i dont think we need to eat meat but im not against people eating it, so it wasn't a difficult decision for us it really depends on your views.

Oh and Indith I haven't got much to offer except sympathy, I was going to say don't feel bad if you can get rid of the dummy now, but then I realized it is also causing the half hourly wakings so you clearly need to do something. I think it was PMK who had a similar thing with her DS he woke too often overnight with the dummy and I think she went cold turkey but she might have better tips. I second the blanket Muslin thing. DS2 often half sucks on the dummy and half on the edge of his blanket this maybe why he doesn't wake after initially falling asleep with the dummy as if he can't find it is he can suck on the blanket to resettle before he fully wakes up. Sorry mine doesn't wake, but I've done my time with wakeful babies with DS1 it was 18 months before he slept through!!!! I'm also not counting my chickens as I know it can all go wrong.

DH has rung from Poland the wedding he is at is nice I think but he is just glad he isn't marrying the bride, she's a bit of a nightmare. It's a shame as his friend who is now married to her is lovely. Also DH is realizing why he doesn't like going out with his workmates. IT geeks are not fun (sorry SL). One guy wants to dance all night, apparently he's not the best moover and shaker and refuses to take his very geeky leather jacket off so just smells of sweat, another one is hooked on Valium and has picked up some in Poland as it's over the counter and has been having hallucinations. My poor DH he just wants to come, he's such a little home body anyway and resents having to be away from us for this.

Evening All

Veggie - it is so hard when other children attack your own and especially so when its the children of friends. I have never really worked out how to handle it. Generally when DD1 has arguments with other kids I think it is best to let the kids get on with it and sort it out themselves, but if one child is being violent for no reason, and it is happening over and over then I would consider having a word with his mum about how to handle it. What does she say?

Indith and Daisy - I have so much sympathy on the sleep deprivation. I can't offer advice, as you know I am resorting to professional help, but I can offer empathy and the thought that you are not alone in the middle of the night.

WG - I really hope that you get a lovely rest in Portugal and are given the support you need from your Dad and his lovely friend.

Spot - Enjoy your night of camping. I am sure Mr T will be fine. It sounds so much fun.

Poison - Do you mean you would like to live in Barcelona now? Is that your ideal? Would your DH consider it? Are you really not feeling like you can settle in the county at the mo?

Lal - Lovely to hear from you. Your car journey sounds terrible but I loved the way you told it? Does the possible conflict of interest between your job and your DH's job mean you are not going back to work in the autumn. Are you going to have to apply for a new position? Will it have to be in a new Dept? That sounds really hard but its nice that you and your DH have the arrangement of alternating the bread winner and carer roles.

Verso - Fab news on the job. Congratulations. What will you be doing?

LadyT - Enjoy Lake Garda. I am super jealous. I am quite jealous of all your cricket shennanigans too. I love watching cricket on a sunny day.

We are looking forward to Father's Day tomorrow. DD1 has made DH a lovely card (she has just learnt to draw recognisable people instead of scribbles and she has done a brilliant picture of her and DH). We have also made cupcakes decorated with rugby and cricket balls. And I have bought a book on the Black Death because his current hobby is trying to write a novel illustrating the affect that the black death had on the class structure of England (its clearly going to be a best seller with those themes!). I hope you all have lovely days with your DH's and your kids. xxx

veggie, you have my sympathy - we have a similar situation with the children of a very good friend, they have three and the middle one sounds a bit like your ds's friend. He loves playing with dd but in a way that involves making scary faces, shoving things at her, grabbing her limbs etc. the parents acknowledge that he's very hard work but sometimes they can't be keeping an eye on all three at once. We were out together recently and I ended up backing further and further away from him with dd as she was looking scared I'm sure a stern word wouldn't be seen as excessive - does the parent there do any disciplining? We just said over and over again that gentle cuddles are fine but scaring her isn't good and we'd have to take her away if he carried on. Very difficult though if this lad is hitting poor ds and upsetting him.

verso great great news about the job well done you big star!

Gah dd awake (had a really unsettled day) so off to administer the magic B. see you all later!

Hope DD settles soon JJ. Veggie - I meant to tell you that we went to Calcot Manor on our honeymoon (with DD1) so if you have any questions just ask. I was a particular fan of the big outdoor hot tub that sits in front of a huge fire. I sat in it for hours sipping cheerfullness and luxuriating. I am also a big fan of Cowley Manor which is in the same area and has the best spa ever.

Evening all, am i too late to join? Have only just discovered this thread, and we do qualify, ds born on 9th december!

A brief introduction, ds has slept through from 12 til 7 am once when he was exactly 12 weeks old and never repeated the experience. I am obsessed with sleep, naps, weaning, the impact of weaning on naps and sleep, and my return to work in one week and the impact on my sleep. And ds's naps. And the entertainer that I bought for him from ebay today. It's going to be the answer.

She does speak sternly to him and in some cases takes him a side to speak to him but one thing I don't like is that she makes him apologize and then gives him lots of praise for his apology, which I kind of think he shouldn't really get praise for. I'm all for positive reinforcement but he is getting praise for saying sorry for hitting so hard that he has made another child, I feel he should just have it acknoledge that he has said it not be praised.

Lady I love the Italian lakes a few years ago on a cycling trip in Italy we cycled from the bottom of Lake Lecce around Como, Garda, Lugano and Maggiore. It is really beautiful some of my fav places in the world. Some amazing houses around the lakes esp Como, it's like the Bishops Avenue but around a lake.

Arti how are you holding up, you know all of us are waiting and hoping the sleep thing works. I have to admit I not only want it to work for you so you get some sleep but also I don't want the sleep consultants 100% success rate ruined. I would find that quite a heavy burden on me if it was mine, I'd be sure that my child would be the one they couldn't make sleep. I was sure DS1 was incapable of sleeping through cos I'd somehow broken him!!!

Hi Staines welcome we have had a couple of newcomers recently so lovely to meet you, can I assume your name is a hint to your locale? I'm from Derby so no chance of meet up with you most of the girls on here are from the four corners of London though we've had a couple decant Essex recently, and we have some northern girls, and also the lovely Bisou who is in Australia (ah the mother country). Congrats on the one night of sleep. So nice of your DS to remind you what it feels like to get a full night of sleep then wisk it away. How are you feeling about going back to work? Is DS your first, how did everything go with preg and birth, how are you finding everything so far?

Oh and Arti I might be back to you about the Manor, I think I need it. I'm gonna broach the idea with DH when he gets back. Did the other one have a creche too?

Hi Veggie, thanks for the lovely welcome.

yes, the name is inspired by our location, and the fact that i felt massive when i joined mn.

i was in the peak district last week to visit our in laws cottage in winster. it's so beautiful up there. i'd still miss oz if i was you though! i lived in melbourne for about a year in my 20s. loved it.

i don't mind going back to work - am doing 3 days in an office and half a day from home, so i feel like it's the best of both worlds hopefully. ds is a very physical little boy, needs lots of stimulus, so i'm kind of hoping that life might be less physically tiring...??? he is my first, so what do i know!?

i enjoyed pregancy from 5 months to about 8 months. up to 5 months had nausea all the time, from 8 months had disgusting heartburn. i feel so sorry for pregnant women when i see them now. i would definitely do it again though.
birth - had an epidural. brilliant!

so far i love being a mum, can't really believe he's ours even now. but the lack of sleep is starting to get to me. i resent dh a lot. in fact i resent everyone that's not sleep deprived, but will try to be nice on here! have just been thinking today that it's time to leave ds with him for the day a couple of times. he has no idea!

Hello, stainesmassif! "DO IT!" I mean leave DS with DH before he is styled (D)H or even simply "H". You will find plenty of sympathy on here for lack of sleep. It's hideous isn't it? And how come everyone offline has magical sleeping babies? Hope you enjoy being on the thread - this is a really really nice bunch of people

Had a v pants night last night. DH and I actually went out for a meal - lovely! - but then DD2 has been up ALL the rest of the night. *Teeth. Is grim. Have resorted to pram at mo as she can't get herself to sleep amd is getting frustrated... best get off here and push it back and forth a bit!

Hi staines! I recognise you from the Sleep threads, where I spend alot of time obessing about sleep too. My DS (born 16th Dec) actually had a decent night on Friday but other than that this week has been crap, screaming at bedtime every night and am currently sat here in tears (me not him!) while he chomps happily on a soft toy and watches Rachel Allen cooking on TV having been up since 05:11. Didn't feel I could stick DH with the early morning duty as it's Father's Day but since he has been away all week I am also cursing him passively agressively at the mo. Think I will be defrosting some of my frozen EBM supply today and sending the two men off for the afternoon before I lose my mind.

Is there something that kicks in around 6 months that makes things harder (PMS? Loss of adrenaline? Permanent damage from sleep deprivation?) because I have been a weepy mess this week for the first time in ages and things are actually not even that bad compared to what they used to be in the early days.

Good morning to Verso and anyone else up with the birds!

Hello,

very very hungover here. Really need a fast cure as DH is at work at 10!! ooooh my head!! Far too many bottles glasses of cheerfulness.

Hope you are all well.

Hi Kayz Sounds like a good night ! I am jealous. Diet coke and crisps always work for me

Hi staines I'm going back to work next week too. Its hard wrk to start with but great to have the best of both worlds, although I miss my boys. Last night DH was telling me how scared he was being left with DS1 for the first time alone . But it needs to be done ! Mom I think there is definitely something that happens around 6 months with your body having enough of sleep deprivation. I remember it happening around this time last time round, feeling physically sick with tiredness. Hopefully they are all just on the cusp of becoming beatiful all night sleepers (except when they are ill/teething etc)

Verso What job do you do ? Must be pretty exciting to be starting a new one.

Veggie, LadyT, I was bought up veggie from the age of 5, as meat used to make me physically sick before then anyway (not for any physical reason, I just thought it was nasty). Hence my younger brothers and sisters never ate meat at home. So I didnt give any meat at all to DS1 until he was nearly 1 - partly because the nursery menus werent as good for veggie children, but also because, on the rare occasions I have tried red meat around someone elses house (usually for misplaced politeness), I find it makes me a bit ill again (now I think because I cant digest it), so I thought I'd best give him a bit, so he can make the choice whether he wants to eat it later. He absolutely yummed it up, so our diet has changed a lot in the last few years in that I now cook a bit of lamb, beef, chicken, and fish, but only the good stuff and I very occasionally join in with the chicken and fish, and try not to think anout it . But we still eat the standard veggie pulses and stuff. Before DS1, DH and I were totally veggie (But DH secretly LOVES meat, so was quite glad). Weaning DS2 has been much easier as a result as we eat very varied food now. (Not that DS1 appreciates it, of course).

Hello to everyone else. Hope those away are having good holidays. I am jealous. We last got away to Centreparcs in March....

Veggie: DS1 is far from an angel child and I have no problem with other people telling him off if needed. I'll also deal with other kids at playgroup if necessary (in a cheery way) and no-one has called me on it yet! I think we get too het up on other adults dealing with our kids, we're supposed to live in a community after all. The thing I can't stand is the other mum giving me reproachful looks, I'd prefer one of us dealt with it right away then forgot about it.

Lal: sorry about the bag snatcher but I did smile at the idea of him/her rummaging through for cards and cash and muttering 'organic cheddar? wtf?'. I miss Borough Market . We have a couple of delis here but it isn't the same. Think the organix porridge is good, the one I was looking at was heinz.

DS2 has turned into a real gobbler, just had a strop cos the toast and yoghurt ran out. Makes me a litt
le sad that he's decided he wants stuff other than my milk but hey.

morning all....i won't go into detail, but we had a distinctly average night last night. if it wasn't bloody father's day dh would be spending day alone with ds, however it was also bil's birthday celebration last night, so dh has a monster hangover(he also has one next sunday - bit like the queen, my bil) plus it is the pil birthdays today....so it's all about inlaws this weekend, no chance of some me time....i am actually considering booking a day's holiday when i return to work just so that i can give ds to the childminder and go to a spa. how sad is that!

re sleep, i think for the first 3 months i was just full of crazy hormones (made me instantly broody for the next one) and then around 4.5 months ds got reeeeeeeeally hungry and the sleep deprivation started to catch up, now at 6.5 months my body has started to shut down!! and my brain. and my personality. my fingers still work though.

unfortunately dh has a saturday job, which does pay really well, so it's always a competition for the sunday lie in. so i have suggested that dh books a couple of days off 'for himself' when he goes into work on monday. little does he know that i'm only suggesting it so that i can follow it up with giving him sole access to his dds.

sorry for self centred nature of post. i will get into the swing of things shortly!

Staines; I would def book a spa day once you're back at work. One of he few perks of being a WOHM is that you have the childcare in place if you need a day off!

Hope your partners are all having a nice father's day (and best wishes to Veggie's DH stuck in Poland with the misfits ). They get a lot of stick but dads are pretty fab and deserving of a cup of tea in bed. Sometimes . DH certainly didn't get a plasma tv, he got breakfast in bed, a card DS1 scribbled over and a bag of sweeys. Or goffs as he sometimes calls them (don't ask, I think it's a Lincolnshire thing).

sweets

oh and DS1 was funny when we were choosing said sweets, he asked if they were for him and having being told they were for Daddy thought a minute then said 'Daddy share'. Women in shop in fits. He remembers the sharing thing when it suits him, at playgroup with the coveted fire engine it's a different story...