October 08 - Chit chat

[CantSleepWontSleep]

That's us with the chit chat, not the babies!

10th Sept (Due 1st Oct) - loulou33 - Boy - Joe Louis David - 6lbs 12oz - Induction due to rhesus sensitivity, G&A.
16th Sept (Due 8th Oct) - Ksal - Girl - Emma Rae - 6lbs - Just beat induction for PE!
21st Sept (Due 5th Oct) - myjobismum - Girl - Naomi Caitlin - 5lbs 10oz - Fast and furious hospital birth.
22nd Sept (Due 10th Oct) - Lozza70 - Boy - Sander Gene - 7lbs 5oz - Em C-Sec due to raised BP and high ALTs from liver.
2nd Oct (Due 12th Oct) - star6 - Boy - Quinlan - 5lbs 15oz - 36hr labour, ventouse and stitches.
3rd Oct (Due 26th Sept) - purpleflower - Girl - Rebecca Jill Erzsebet - 8lbs 10.5oz - Homebirth with paramedics due to meconium.
4th Oct (Due 30th Sept) - Aubergenie - Boy - Stanley - 7lbs 12oz -
5th Oct (Due 4th Oct) - hedgepig - Boy - Oliver - 6lbs 3oz -
5th Oct (Due 29th Sept Oct) - CherryChoc - Boy - Ryan - 6lbs 11oz - 3 day labour with natural birth in hospital
8th Oct (Due 6th Oct) - ronshar - Boy - William Dexter - 7lbs 11oz -
8th Oct (Due Oct) - RedElsie - Boy - Daniel - -
9th Oct (Due 17th) - Marthasmama - Girl - Martha - 7lbs 10oz - Elective c-sec
10th Oct (Due 1st Oct) - CantSleepWontSleep - Boy - Duncan Elliot - 8lbs 4oz - 4 day induction with 1 hour established labour!
12th Oct (Due 4th Oct) - pistachio - Boy - Thomas Fraser - 10lbs 2oz - Homebirth.
13th Oct (Due 15th Oct) - mum2jakeyroo/jrsqueak - Boy - Joshua - 7lbs 2oz - Delivered in car by dh!
16th Oct (Due 17th Oct) - rowanmac - Girl - Anna Ruth - 7lbs 2oz - 2 hours ARM to placenta delivery.
16th Oct (Due 11th Oct) - heather1980 - Boy - Alexander James - 9lbs 5oz - Homebirth
17th Oct (Due 10th Oct) - pepperrabbit - Girl - Jessica Rose - 7lbs 15.5oz -
17th Oct (Due 27th Oct) - Rhian82 - Boy - - - Episiotomy and ventouse.
24th Oct (Due 29th Oct) - Ekka - Boy - Matthew - 7lbs 15oz - Home water birth with gas and air.
26th Oct (Due 20th Oct) - jenwa - Girl - Phoebe Jasmine - 9lbs 2.5oz -
28th Oct (Due 23rd Oct) - RachieW - Boy - Jack - 7lbs 4oz - hospital birth, epidural, stitches, 24hrs start to finish
28th Oct (Due 31st Oct) - Jojay - Boy - Edward Alexander - 7lbs 7oz - hospital birth - gas and air, 2nd degree tear. 7 hrs start to finish.
1st Nov (Due 22nd Oct) - SmudgeyDoodle - Girl - - 8lbs 2oz - Hospital water birth.
5th Nov (Due 29th Oct) - Honeymoonmummy - Girl - Poppy Grace - 6lbs 15oz -
5th Nov (Due 30th Oct) - MamaG - Boy - Harry James - 10lbs 9oz - Em C-Sec. Back to back and knotted cord around neck. 24 hours of labour first though, and don't you forget it!

Myjob - it's good to hear that someone else has done the 'refusing to feed at night' thing. We've been doing it for a few weeks now and it's dramatically improved DS's sleep. He does still have bad nights but it's generally a lot better, and things like last night (sleeping till 5.20am) would have been unthinkable a month ago.

I don't think it's massively increased his appetite in the day, maybe a bit, but he's eating a bit more every day now anyway really as he grows and has more and more solids. His weight gain is good anyway, and he's clearly alert and thriving.

I HAD stopped night feeds.... but now I'm doing it again... just b/c it's a quick fix to stop him crying and put him back to sleep! What did you do, rhian and myjob when dc woke up and wanted feed and screamed? Just carry them around or stroke in cot?

Myjob, that's so good it worked out for you. With DS it definitely wasn't a hunger thing (he'd refuse a bottle, even though he's fine with drinking from them in he day), it was just a comfort thing. He couldn't self-settle at all, he'd wake and need a breastfeed before he could go back to sleep. We still get odd wakings when he's really not happy and DH struggles to settle him for long (I don't go to him as we figured if I was there he'd insist on feeding!), but mostly he can self-settle really well - we hear him wake, whimper slightly but never really cry, and then fall back asleep again all by himself, it's wonderful!

Star6 - DH deals with DS during the night now, he starts off trying to calm him in his cot (works sometimes, just a cuddle and a pat, and stroking his face), and if that's not enough then he'll pick him up and carry him round. It was pretty distressing at first when he'd just scream for ages, but he's getting a lot better now and mostly he doesn't need picking up anymore.

I know what you mean about a quick fix, sometimes when DS is taking forever to settle it's really tempting to know I could feed him and he'd probably be fine, but it would also undo everything we've been doing!

I might have DH do that... he would... but then would be really grumpy from not getting sleep. Would almost rather have him well rested... at least one of us, you know?

I should have stuck with that too. I wonder if I've made it worse for myself... well, I know I have. We went with NO night feeds for nearly 3 months. He slept so well and would be soothed back to sleep with patting. Now he wants to feed a lot.

I did the leaving them to cry, well actually just kept putting dummy back in. It can take a while for them to realise that you are not feeding them but to be honest I am crap with no sleep so thought a week or whatever it would take would suit me knowing in the long run they would sleep. Did it with both. DD2 was 11 weeks old when she went in her own room and we are in the loft so I was up and down int he night and some nights sleeping on her floor as would lie there waiting for next cry and usually fall asleep as could not be arsed to climb back upstairs to come back down again. It did take about 5 days and we have had afew times since where she has woken around 3:30'5:30 but we just put her dummy back in and leave the room and she falls back to sleep. I knew that she was not really hungry. Babies dont know the difference bewtween whether they have slept for 1 hour or 7 so waking up early hours they may just want to get up so getting dd2 into a routine that she got up when we get her up worked Never really picked DD up in the night as thought I could stand there for 5 mins or an hour and eventually pick her up so she would get to understand that eventually she would be picked up so had to let her know I would not. There were some occassions when I did but this was when she was younger and really fretful and just needed a cuddle.
csws I hope you do get it sorted and MM I would not be able to cope with it, hate disturbed sleep!
star maybe Q has got back into a routine of feeding again. Could you try weaning him off again? I remember you said just patting him on the bum and gently rocking him helped send him to sleep. Could you try that again when he wakes? He may be feeding from you more as a comfort thing in the night?

Sorry, typed that really quick as DD2 was babbling away and was not sure it was going to turn into a strop!

jenwa - yeah i think so. And I also worry that he's just making up for milk intake sincehe refuses it while away from me during the day. On the 2 days that i can't give the lunch feed, he goes from 8am-3.45pm without milk at all (but has food of course and water).

Star, just for interest, Emma doesn't have milk between 7am and 3pm either - that is just her normal routine now that she's eating 3 meals a day. Its different because she's fully bottle fed but thought you may be interested. She has 7.5 ounces at 7 am, 3 pm and 7 pm and three meals inbetween.

I have loads of sympathy for all of you with the non sleeping babies. It wasnt that long a go that I was there with you.
I started when W went into his own room.
I have always put W down while he was awake. Right from tiny. Sometimes he would self settle sometimes not. I never let him cry when tiny. I always stayed with him so was in the same room. He knew I was there.
In his own room I alway put him down awake after last feed. He gets a little tickle and lots of snuggly kisses, which make him giggle then I say goodnight and his head nearly falls off trying to watch me leave the room. 90% of the time he goes straight to sleep without a sound. 5% he grumbles a bit, 5% he shouts so I go back in after a few mins, cover him back up, pull his music bear, then stand next to the cot.
I had to spend the first two nights mostly in his room. First night I fed him, second night I refused as he didnt feed properly before. Just comfort. Third night he woke once around 3ish. Has not woken properly since. I always just re cover, music, stroke. Only ever pick up if the crying is not normal moaning cry iyswim.

Unfortunately the only answer with all techniques is that you have to have the will to out smart the child. 7 days child, 3 day adult!!! They are all at an age where they are beginning to know what they are doing and so know what works to get attention. Monkeys.

Oh yes Star I meant to say W very rarely wants to feed during the day. So he almost certainly isnt hungry at night especially if he had stopped night feeding before. If he is hungry it may be he needs more solid food. Q is very mobile now so needs more fats etc in his diet.
It is half term now isnt it? Ideal opportunity for both you & DH to get it sorted.

Star - Joe doesn't have milk between breakfast feed and a feed after his nap at about 3pm. He slept 7.30pm til 7am this morning although some days he is up at 5am - its totally random.

I have used controlled crying but i think the name is often used incorrectly ie just to leave a baby to cry. It involves very similar approach to pick up put down, just patting them/shushing them instead of lifting. With my two, i used and they both settle ok to sleep most of the time. IMO, its partly about confidence in deciding when to start doing it, just doing it and following through with it. Apparently, if they fall asleep in your arms, they learn to associate you with sleep and not that they can get themselves off (like N and Joe bit go off on their own). Joe usually chats to himself for a few mins before dropping off. This is what i have done if you are interested:

Put them to bed, say night night etc then if crying, go in say after 2 mins, shush/pat etc for one minute then leave. Go in after 3 mins and do same, then 4 mins etc until settled. How dark are bedrooms etc, as darkness encourages the release of melatonin hence having good routine and increasing darkness and quiet aids sleep. I used to let Joe fall asleep on me whilst watching TV but MIL pointed out that it was too noisy/light for him, when i took him upstairs, he fell asleep (damn her for being right)

HTH but i think its hard if you think they are ill etc as i putting it off with Joe due to his wind etc and only really persevered when i knew he was well enough to do it

got to go

After getting up just after 8, ds didn't nap until he got 10 mins in the car at 12:45. He then didn't even fall asleep when he went for a half hour walk in pushchair at 3. He was deliriously tired and eventually got about 15 mins on my lap after a feed at 4 ish. He then got about 35 mins in car which he woke from at 5:15. So that's a total of one hour's sleep in the last 12, and yet he is still refusing to go to bed tonight, and is busy mauling me whilst I attempt to give a relaxing cuddle . I am beyond frustration now. But I will not let him cry for 2 hours in order to try and get him to sleep by himself.

How is N now myjob?

CSWS and MM. You both totally have my sympathy. It sounds horrendous.

CSWS - I'm sure you've tried everything but, just in case, something that was suggested in NCSS and on the Dr Sears website here was to put a pillow next to baby when you put him down so he thinks it's you next to him. Could be tricky if D sleeps on his tummy. Also he mentions waiting till the baby is completely floppy before putting him down. I know I sometimes try and put S down too quickly it when I haven't waited long enough.

You were interested in the NCSS and the other thing that Elizabeth Pantley talks about is about creating night-time associations - certain kinds of music, rituals etc so that if your baby wakes in the night, you play that music and the baby knows it's time to go back to sleep. I get the feeling that things might not be quite that easy with D...

The problem is, if you do decide that some kind of sleep "training" (however gentle) is the way to go, you need to feel like you're not completely wiped out before you start, and I know you've got an issue with not getting any opportunities to nap and tank up on sleep before you start.

I'm not having to get up quite so early atm aubergenie, as once dd has fed she's coming down with dh, so I'm getting an extra half hour or so doze before d wakes for day. And dd isn't coming down til 7:15 usually now.
D has a music box which automatically comes on and plays for 10 mins if he wakes and cries. It def helps.

Just had argument with dh about cc .

Ds now feeding on lap and think he might actually go to sleep soon. Hope so, as want to watch ER!

I really hope that's a sign that N is finally on the mend now Myjob.

Can I just ask about the ibuprofen/calpol mix - is that so that you can give it more regularly than you would be able to with just the one? I've only ever given Calpol/generic paracetamol because I didn't even know you could get ibuprofen for babies.

about the argument CSWS. What are your DH's views on CC then?

Thanks for the info Myjob - I didn't realise that. Very useful.

aubergenie - NHS direct used to advise the alternating meds if you rang them about a fever in a baby/child, but they apparently don't any more. Those of us who have had this advice, either directly or on MN, tend to continue to do it.
Nurofen for children is ok from 3 months.

Shit - ds fell asleep down here and dh took him up at 9:15, but he's just woken again whilst I was typing above - aarrrrrgh!