APRIL 2008 - The One Where They Can Eat Food & Shoes & Toys ........

[FrankenSoph73]

Thought as the messages were coming in thick & fast I´d start new thread. Don´t know if it´ll work though. Fingers crossed.

How do you feel about that scorpio?

Good suggestion re water in flask VS - might help with the prob with not wanting to use cartons as too expensive and not wanting to take milk out made up and feeling a bit worried about mixing below 70 degrees. Will think on

DD has snacks if hungry and are not somewhere can immediately do lunch. Take some little rice cakes out with me and similar stuff.

Right - to all you BLWers - how the hell do you cope with the choking? It's really getting me down! I am trying to give her finger foods with at least one meal a day - toast, little corn things or rice cakes, or fingers of cheese for example, but apart from the icky corn things, that just seem to melt everywhere, she chokes on all rest and it scares the beejesus out of me! A couple of times she has gagged so hard she's been sick and once she really had trouble getting a piece of whatever it was up, and really scared herself, and me. Is this normal? It really frightens me but I don't want her on mush til she's 18.

Hi Ellie,
DS has gagged enough to be sick as well, it is upsetting and normally at that point I calmly gather all the bits up and take them away and move back onto mush TBH - I think it is normal though, and I just feel that it's worth it as he enjoys getting his hands on the food so much and he's learning to chew so well (and I felt so proud of him when he merrily munched away on melon when we were out with my mummy-mates the other day..he was last to wean so finally I get to be first at something )
I give him finger food with lunch and dinner, so he gets plenty of practice, and when he does gag I try to stay very calm & still so he doesn't get spooked and I also do a bit of miming very exaggerated chewing to remind him what he needs to do.
Also, I try not stare at him eating..I don't know but it seems to put him off a bit so I try to eat a bit of what he's having as well (or something else if it happens to be cold steamed broccoli, blegh)
What sorts of things has she gagged on the most?

Thanks ladybee - I did a thread on this and nobody cares....sob....'cept you.

Cheese. And bread. I tried to stay calm and chilled, and I was outwardly, but inwardly I was going eeeeeeeeekkkkkkkkk! And wanted to give her purees forever. Maybe she is not getting enough practice. Some days I forget to give any. Is 6 months too young? Annabelle Karmel says not til 7 months but BLWers give 'em now. What foods do you give? Are there any which are less scary?

As for being frightened yourself - have you had recent training in first aid for under 1s? Because doing that could help you feel a bit more confident that if something did happen you could deal with it quickly.

Also, I think the gagging is a developmental stage - they need to learn to control the movement of the food around their mouths, and gagging helps protect them from choking IYSWIM. Once she's had more practice it might ease off a bit?

argh sorry should have refreshed before posting.
Is the bread toasted? or raw - if raw, might be a bit claggy in her mouth..at the moment - same with cheese? just until she gets a bit better?

Melon has been a huge success for us - I cut it in quite thin wedges leaving a bit of rind on one end for him to hold onto. He can get some off and loves it.

Have you tried roast butternut squash? That seems quite easy (and mush-like ;) - and roast sweet potato as well, also good practice).

I went to brief St John's Ambo talk, which went over rudimentaries of what to do, which did ease my mind a bit, but am going to go back and do their fuller short course on baby first aid, yes.

I will try and steel myself to give her some more things tomorrow. I just hate it so much....

I should've refreshed too!

I did toast bread, but the loaf I used today was claggier (if that's a word) than usual. And cheese I think same - is a bit hard to mush up in mouth.

Good tip re melon, and she loves squash and sweet potato, so will try them. She does love finger food, will eat like that when refusing anything else, so would be a shame not to get to grips with it.

Thanks for advice lady

good luck
I've had days of wanting to pack it all in too - it's so stressful sometimes but I got such a thrill today watching him nearly do a pincer grip to pick up a very small piece of pear - am sure his skills are better because of it.

I'm still feeling useless about coordinating BF, meals, sleep - DS just doesn't cry and I can't tell anymore when he's hungry for his BFs. Maybe he isn't?

Ladies - a question for tomorrow, what do you see your babies doing when they're getting hungry..am sure DS must be giving me cues but feel like I'm missing them..at the moment I'm feeding according to my old patterns but it doesn't feel like it's working that well now he's on 3 meals as well...

DD gets a bit grouchy when hungry. Or over-excited. If really really hungry will cry with tears. The tired cry has no tears and doesn't persist. Generally though, she doesn't cry, and I can just tell cos she is crabby, but not sleep-wanting crabby.

Right, am off to bed. Is DH's night to deal with the LO so I can sleep (sort of)

See you tomorrow

Gagging is natural, but being on baby 3 I find it easier. If you're worried there is NOTHING WRONG with using purées etc. I use some sometimes, DS seems happy to eat but takes forever yet if I get some Ella's kitchen out he screams til I give him the spoon. I let him choose when it stopped tonight, he is still asleep!!!
Let your baby guide you, if it's worrying you and you're near (I'll say very near, give or take a week or so) 26 weeks then it's whatever suits you. I just personally wouldn't feed before 26 weeks unless baby was showing signs of ability to eat. If that's sorted, purées are fine, IMO, it's just food, mashed, puréed or not, it's still food, it's up to you which feels safer once you have decided they are safe to eat.

Thanks VS. Mol is 27 weeks I think, so all good. I think I will try some less claggy food today but just go with purees for now if still gagging lots. I can always come back to them, and like you say, food is food in whatever form. I forget it is still early days.

Me and DH had the MOTHER of all rows in the middle of the night. She woke up crying and he wants to leave her to cry as she has already fed, and doesn't need more. I get up and start to do PUPD whereupon he says oh I've got no say in my daughter's life, fine you do it all and I'll shut up etc etc. This has been coming on for a while as he really believes in CC and I think is complete last resort, which we are nowhere near. Anyway, he was obnoxious, I lost my rag and said fine, leave her cry, but is your responsibility and on your head and I am going downstairs. I listened for 45 mins, and there was lots of on/off howling, nowhere near settling. Went up, we argued, I stomped out again, he said fine we'll do it your way and brought her downstairs to play (which is not my way). So I takes her upstairs do PUPD and she's asleep in 10 mins, poor little mite.

Sorry for the blow by blow account, it doesn't sound that much when right it, but am still seething. She's just having a bad blip, and I feel we have to exhaust every possibility and then some before trying CC, I just hate hate hate it, I can't listen to her cry when I know I can ease her back to sleep. But he just kept saying oh you're soothing her to sleep and even though I tried to explain the methodology behind PUPD and that not just cuddling her to sleep, he wouldn't listen.

Bah.

Ladybee - meant to say, am trying Annabelle Karmel's routine re feeds today

wake up - breakfast
midmorning - breast/bottle
Lucnhtime - lunch
Mid afternoon - breast/bottle
Teatime - dinner
Bedtime - breast/bottle

She has a sleep between breakfast and bottle and some time in the afternoon

Probably easier to do with bottlefed babies though

Ellie, I'd have been exactly the same and there is nothing like a screaming baby to notch up the tension on what could have been a 'heated discussion' at another time.

I'm not one for controlled crying, at all, it feels too much like teaching them there is no point in crying cos mummy ain't coming.

DP and I had the same conversation the other day, he was worrying about me not getting any sleep and I've been getting up at least twice in the night to settle Alex, plus he has been waking twice before I've even got to bed so DP suggested just letting him cry.

I said if baby was old enough to understand (more like 12-18 months than 6 months, IMO) and I could actually say 'Look, it's bedtime, I love you and I'm only going downstairs but I'm not coming back up if you cry because it's bedtime' then I'd do it.

I've done it with both of mine when they were older, old enough to know what was going on, but I don't think 6 months is.

Grizzling, yes, fine, ignore, Alex sometimes grizzles because he's tired, it's a way of getting himself to sleep but once the tone changes, to actual crying I have to go in and get him.

FWIW, I honestly don't believe controlled crying would work on him, he doesn't settle when crying, he just gets worse and worse so I find it much easier to do PUPD (which is, in essence, the same message as CC is meant to be, non? Cry all you like but you are going to sleep, only difference is I'll settle you first?).

Would your DH read a book? Or internet print outs if you gave him them? I know some posters have recently posted studies that say CC can be harmful, not so sure on them myself but maybe it would help to sway DH? Also the Healthy Sleep Habits Happy Child book says to use PUPD so maybe that would help enforce your way a little? I find it helps to say 'We'll look this up together then cos I've read up on it a little and am rather impressed but I'm rubbish at explaining it, maybe if you have a look you can find a way where we don't leave ehr to cry, cos I just can't bear to hear it'

well, actually that's what I thought he was heading towards - he was really uninterested in me feeding him at 7:30 this morning. But thinking back, it is usually the one around 11, and around 3 that he usually feeds best at now.
Might need to bring his dinner forward a bit though. And yes he does get over-excited. I should have known that was a cue - the number of times I've fed him when he was getting squealy in a cafe, and then miraculously he's quietened down. Duh.

Benedict loves holding the spoon when I feed him his purees, I think he enjoys that more sometimes - getting it back from him is a bit of wrestling match. He also loves feeding me

Ellie, has your DH had experience of using CC with other babies? Why does he believe in it so strongly? Have you asked him? If he says he thinks it's teaching them something, I think you could quite easily challenge him on that as I never felt that happy about what it might be teaching my DS the very few times I tried leaving him.
I just felt that I was possibly:

• teaching him his mum wouldn't come?
• teaching him he needed to cry for at least X minutes before his mum would help him?

compared with PUPD

• teaching him it is sleep time, and mum will help him to learn how to go to sleep by herself for as long as he needs it.

I know controlled crying works for lots of parents nnd have no problem with people using it if they feel confident that it's the right thing for them and their baby, btw. But the physical and emotional stress it raised in me was worse than being woken.

Oh, meant to add, last night he woke up once, at 1am, for a feed. This was from 8pm last night. He then woke at 7:30 am to get up. The night before he woke up at 10:30 for a feed and then at 6am, then slept until 10am. So something must be working. We've gone from four feeds from bedtime til morning to one.

I'm getting my hims and hers mixed up - not sure whether I'm speaking about me or you here..but you get the idea

hah - x-posts twice VS

LadyBee, A is no longer interested in a feed when he wakes now either, unless he is planning on going back to sleep. I feed him before his naps now rather than after, he used to wake up to feed, now he wakes because he's had enough sleep iyswim?

So we have a feed somewhere between 4-6am (if he is still sleepy) then either 10 am (if he is up by 7am) before his nap, or one at about 11:30 (if he sleeps in) then at about 2pm, and at 7pm before bed.

He has his dinner (quite large, this is when he seems to really want his food, he starts with the same as us and then when we're finished I sometimes give him puree, which too is like a wrestling match) at 6pm with us, and lunch at about noon. He doesn't pay much attention to breakfast but might suck on a bit of toast if he is sat with us, the same with lunch, he's not really bothered by it.

Great minds LadyBee

Thank you ladies, you both said very much what I was feeling, but not articulating very well in my sleep-deprived state.

We had another full and frank discussion this morning - I think the reason he is so for CC is that with his first they picked her up all the time and she didn't sleep properly for 18 months, so he panics when she doesn't seem to be settling.

I tried talking to him about the methodology behind PUPD and my problems with CC e.g. elevated levels of stress hormones in baby but I got all muddled and cross and we ended up yelling again, and he said words to effect of 'Well people have been having babies for 1000s of years and they didn't need science or books blah blah.
And I said he was talking bollocks and being willfully obtuse about the whole thing and that he should do some research like I had.

Think I will try your way of putting that VS - my way 'God, you are so STUPID! Why don't you read up and stop talking about stuff you don't know!' - might not have been quite the most sensitive way of putting things.

On a much nicer note - DSD (whom I have had a very nice half term with) came down and gave me a little book she had made me,

It said

'I love Eleanor because.....

1. She hugs me
2. She makes yumy food
3. She's lovley and best of all....
4. She loves me right back

Dear Eleanor

I thik I should call you start calling you Mum so hear goes
Dear Mum
Love you!
Love Jess
p.s. Have a lovley day x'

Then she said 'I love you Mum' and am not ashamed to admit I cried like a baby. Bless her.

Oh Ellie!
That's lovely. I just got all tearful from that so I'm not surprised you cried!!

On the other subject if DH wants to talk about how people have had babies for 1000s of years. He's right. And it's only in the last 100 or so years that people have stopped co-sleeping and probably the most basic form of attachment parenting. So there

I wasn't allowed to do that (though when he went away recently, I put her in bed with me and was lovely for both of us) and didn't mind, but CC is beyond me. Am looking up effects of on internet and now am worried that even a little bit of crying is harmful. I usually leave to grizzle but pick up when cry and she's a happy baby though, so think must be OK

ellie lease tell your dh that I personally having been having babies for thousands of years and I still find the science of it leads me to new and interesting (and beneficial) discoveries with each one. And no, I dont do CC. PUPD much better, imo.

And have a

we have a full on crawler!! YAY
all over and into everything.

bit worried he cant sit though- is tat disordere develpment?

He is also saying ma when he sees me and da for dad-logic says yeah right, instincts say yes though

We are having feeding problems though: he just wont accept being fed ad insists on self feeding only which menas he is hungrier as getting less fortified stuff, breastfeeding back to the 3 hour again (hmph!) and biting as teething so I a beeding )teeth fine except when he is teeting, then he chomps). Bit worried about weight gain as a result.

Went to a halloween party at a friends last night- was excellent. Boys behaved but ds3 had toilet accidents 3 times and has been ahving problems again all week

Not sure about the development Peachy. DS has been sitting for a while now and recently started crawling a bit. He does full on army crawl, then normal crawl, then army crawl again iyswim.
But DD never crawled, just sat.

Thanks peachy, hope poor little DS3 is sorted soon bless him.
Yey for Bas!

Mol doesn't crawl, but sits, so we can't have everything. She doesn't even roll cos she hates being on tummy. Little backwards baby

Ellie, I don't know whether a bit of grizzle is going to release the same stress hormones as full-on 'I'm upset' crying, but my feeling is not, because their whole bodies look different when they're grizzling - they're much more screwed up and tense and you can see on their faces that they're emotionally upset when they get wound up, whereas the sleepy time grizzling seems more relaxed grumpiness to me. Not based on exactly scientific observation of my sample of one, but feels right to me.

It's awful when you disagree about these things though isn't it, it's hard enough doubting yourself without feeling like the one person who should be cheering you on, is doubting you too.

Peachy - such an ups and downs post! Yay for the crawling and speech - why not , boo for the biting and eating decreases though.
FWIW, the lady who looks after B on tuesdays has a daughter the same age as ours, and she is a great crawler but can't sit without support. No ASD history there (she has an older brother).