Dec 08 Ladies - LIghtning Strikes... and the usual gossip!

[Beans33]

Hope this works for everyone - I'm assuming Summer won't give birth in the next few hours!! x

That's interseting chatter.

My Mum said she BF my db for a few months but then had awful trouble with me and remembers going to her 6 week check up really struggling to continue any BF-ings. She even said my db fussed a lot and took forever to latch on as he's just push away.

Well I have just returned from dropping dh at the station as he has to work and afternoon in London, and decided to be really brave and stop and look at a highchair
I can safely say I got from car to shops to car again, relatively unscathed and without meltdown from either (got ds back in the car just in the nick of time) It was rather brave of me I feel, especially since ds hasn't napped. Feeling really proud of myself I decided I should stop at Mothercare on the way home as I need to return something and get something else but ds fell asleep not 2 mins later so thought I's quit while ahead and go when I go and collect dh this afternoon. dd didn't wake at all, and ds had some milk to passify him as he started to kick off and wanted out of the buggy, but he is now asleep upstairs
I must say, gone are the days of "just nipping to the shops" anymore.

To all P&T users: I have that attachment to put the carseat on the top and had ds in the toddler seat on the back but i can't decide what would be easier? That combination works in that dd doesn't have to be disturbed in the transition, however the buggy doesn't fold up with the toddler seat on the back? I can't decide whether it's easier to do that while she's so young, or take the cocoon and leave the toddler seat on the front (which ds prefers as he can see better) then have to get her out of the car seat etc.... What do you do? Or while she's young and it's just a quick outing perhaps I'd be better to transfer her to the Bjorn and take the lightweight stroller? I'm thinking that might be the answer until she can sit upright and therefore toddler seat will be needed on the back? Can the buggy be folded with the toddler seat on the back? maybe it can? Perhaps I should read the instructions at some point!

I think being ff and having no ill effects was a huge influence for me, definitely. That probably sounds quite irritating. Also, because Mum didn't bf me, I didn't really link it to the tag of 'if you don't bf you are a bad mother as you are not doing the utmost for your child', because I consider my Mum to be utterly brilliant (as many people do think about their Mums!) Finally, I would admit to feeling repulsion at the thought of a child on my breast. I know that is an awful thing to say but I am being completely candid. It's odd because I am not at all repulsed by other people bf - far from it! But the idea never sat v well with me, I tried it in hospital (feeling vulnerable, feeling as if I 'should') and the feelings of loathing it were so utterly intense I knew that it would have a very bad effect on my feelings towards DD if I tried to carry on. So, I do have personal issues about bf, but I fully and fervently believe that it is the best way to feed a child from a nutrition pov and all that, and think breast milk is amazing stuff (and the health benefits for the mother, as you say, are not to be underestimated). And I think people should get all the support they need to bf, and perhaps there isn't really enough and would cheer on any friend who was doing it. If either of my DDs have kids and want to bf, I would really encourage them. I would say it's a great thing to do if you CAN, but there are sometimes physical or mental reasons why you can't, and in some circles the resident idea that you must push yourself through mental and physical agony come what may (and I know people do)...for good or bad, I am just not that person.

I am also grateful to DP for his support on this. He comes from a bf 'culture' - his Mum was an army midwife and is very pro-bf, his sister as well (not that she would tell me what to do) but he said he would support me fully in whatever way I wanted to go, and he has.

Hi all,
Sorry for being quiet!! Back on laptop now though, but must have a nap as DH has gone to the supermarket with DS. DD asleep but should wake soon for some food!

Yes things are good with me.....am v tired though. DD is feeding well but can take 1.5-2hrs to feed at a time in the night which is knackering, even though I am going to bed early and lying in a bit each morning. But I know from last time that this will get better eventually so I just need to stick with it! She has cold so she's not settling very well.

Feeding-wise, my mum BFed me and my brother but I don't think I really knew that before getting pregnant, also my mum is supportive but not really particularly mega pro breast feeding. So not sure that really influenced me. I think like Avo I was just lucky it was reasonably easy for me with DS, as I was not dead set on doing it, despite the propaganda I was fed by the breastfeeding lady at ante-natal classes (I hated her!! Lots of going on about how it made your children more intelligent and how anyone could breastfeed and that anyone who didn't was just giving up). Little about what problems you might have and why. Bloody stupid woman.)

LadyT will you try BF this time for a little bit, or are you going to go straight to bottles?

Rubes sorry if my fb update sounded smug and like stuff was going easy, I was just amazed to have two sleeping children (though to be fair, my dad got DS to sleep anyway!)
Bet it never happens again.

Oh and I too have read One Day, and agree with whoever called it superior chick-lit, written by a man. I really enjoyed it, but I did find the main male character a bit of an idiot, and also was ambivalent to the ending.

Oh I am laughing at Vagola and its derivations!

Right DD awake now.

Oh Avo, my birth story is on this thread somewhere in two installments If you can't find it I can repost.

Y'see? I've frightened everyone away now, with my conchy talk

Rubes, great you went to the shops but have been suspecting for a while that my nipping off to London is in jeopardy with two v small DCs...so am watching with interest!

X-posted with you, Summer! I think it highly unlikely that I will even attempt bf this time.

But I will shut up about it now (though again I think it is an interesting topic, but then again, I am absolutely fascinated by all parenting choices and reasons for)

Rubes I haven't been out with both of them on my own yet!! And I don't have the car attachment (plus am not driving yet) so can only use the cocoon, but I think you are right that it doesn't fold with the toddler bit on top (does it fold with it on the bottom, as I have been taking it off anyway) Why do you need to fold it anyway, are you thinking for in the car or in case you have to on public transport. I would have thought the latter would be impossible anyway as you would have to handle the two of them without pushchair.

I am planning to use both p&t and pushchair/sling combo, the former for longer outings the latter for quick trips or somewhere where I want a smaller buggy.

Rubes, also, when did you start lifting DS? I haven't started yet, well I did lift him by accident after about 5 days and it really hurt, and have got him in high chair myself, but by persuading him to climb. I think i'm probably at a stage it would be ok now (I have stopped taking painkillers now as well)

Glad its going so well Summer. I found your birth story thanks. I am sorry that you did not get your VBAC but glad that there were no big dramas and that your c-section went smoothly.

Rubes - I am being dense about which of the P&T seats is the toddler seat. I think I have the toddler seat on the back (is that the normal configuration once they can both sit?). I find it easy to fold although it doesn't exactly fold small.

LadyT - That is good the your DP was so supportive of your feeding choices. I think it makes sense that one of the reasons you FF was that the model your lovely Mum provided meant that you had positive associations with formula feeding. I do wonder what the reasons are behind your feelings of disgust about putting a baby to your own breast. I know a couple of people who have felt like that but been happy to see others breast feed. So its not a disgust about breast feeding in general but a much more personal reaction. It would be really interesting to know why those feelings develop however its probably very hard to pinpoint.

I am at work today but have very little to do except one meeting this morning and one at 4pm. My whole team is on leave and I am up to date with everything so I am wrapping a pass-the-parcel at my desk. Its DD1's birthday party next weekend. I am planning a humpty-dumpty cake. I am going to make the wall out of chocolate brownies cut into bricks with butter icing cement. Then I am going to have two humpties. One sitting on the wall and one slightly broken on the floor. For the humpties I am going to use kinder eggs with iced faces, paper hats and pipe cleaner arms and legs. During lunch I nipped to the Jane Asher shop and bought icing flowers for a vine to grow up the wall and some iced butterflies to fly around the vine. You may remember that last year DD1 asked for a Russian doll cake with a doll inside a doll inside a doll. This year's request is much easier.

Summer - no it does fold with the seat on the top but I'm wondering if it folds with it on the bottom? Don't think it does tbh. I needed it folded as it was going in the car. I think I will use the Bjorn though for quick outings and just take ds in the small push chair next time as it's a bit heavy for the car. I rarely use public transport
Didn't think you were smug at all! Just proud and I was proud of you! but bloody Nora, 1.5-2hrs? As you know I'm so far removed from a BF-ing expert but I have been told that they take most of their feeds in the first 10-20 mins on the boob? perhaps she is just using you as a dummy for the rest of the time. Anyway I'll shut up now, as I have clearly demonstrated that I'm not the one to take advice from, but make sure you're getting rest - exhaustion can destroy you!
Lady if you have another one like dd1 you'll be absolutely fine to nick into London with the two of them. However, you are also very good at these flying train side baby swaps you do with dp so I doubt you will have any problems!

Rubes - you just remove the toddler seat with the click of a button and then fold the pram over. It takes no time at all.

rubes actually she's pretty efficient at feeding (DS wasn't), but what happens is she feeds for 10 mins, falls asleep, I keep her with me for 10 mins, I put her down, she sleeps for 10-15 mins then wakes up and wants more! Repeat twice, with maybe a nappy change thrown in and before I know it I've bloody been awake 2 hrs. Sometimes she wakes and feeds quickly and goes back to sleep (so I'm only awake half an hour) but not often. It's easier if I just sleep with her in bed but sometimes the same thing happens then. Also i want to get her used to not sleeping with me, but sleeping in the moses basket, so I do tend to try it a few times in the night. The good news is she will now sleep on her back (though she still prefers side or front I think)

Re the P&T i don't find it that much hassle taking the toddler seat on and off if it's to go into the car so it doesn't really bother me.
I have a massive estate car though so space isn't a big issue.

Avo, wowee at your domestic goddess cake making, I would like to see pics when done!

oooh crossed with both of you!

Summer earlier than I should have I think... I think I lifted ds at about 5 days but I was off the pain killers around then anyway, and it didn't hurt or I wouldn't have done it - maybe at a week I was off them i can't remember but I know my shoulder was bothering me more... I asked dh as I was worried I lifted him too soon, and he said as long as I'm not taking anything for the pain (therefore can feel it all) and I don't do it too often it shouldn't be a problem. Not ideal, but just don't do it constantly. I must admit to lifting him quite a bit though, but I've never once lifted him and thought anything hurt in the slightest bit? Apparently you can do damage if you CONSTANTLY were to lift stuff even if you can't feel much pain, but it's have to be heavyish and constant. I am always one to do too much, but I was fine after ds so hoping I wasn't just lucky. I took Arnica with ds and with dd I took "Surgery Mix" from Helios Homeopathy in London which I don't know if it does a darn thing (I'm not usually into that stuff unsurprisingly) but I've felt fantastic both times and healed fast so if you still feel sore, get some if you haven't got Arnica - they send it to you overnight if you ring them. it's got Arnica 200 c in it too.

Avo, having the toddler seat on the back is the usual way to use it with 2 as long as they both can sit up, otherwise the toddler seat goes on the front and the main seat is used down flat with the cocoon in it for the newborn, or if you have the carseat attachment, that goes on the top and you can use the toddler seat still on the back (if you are careful!) so are you saying you can fold it with both seats on?

rubes yes I do feel slightly sore, and definitely did at 5 days lifting DS. I think you must heal faster than me, I have arnica but haven't been taking it!! DH teased me as he thinks homeopathic medicine is bollocks...and I haven't bothered to take it, it's only the 30c version though. However, I am pretty much better now, I wouldnt' say it's painful but i can still feel it if you see what I mean, and I think lifting DS would feel like it was stretching stuff in a way that I don't want.

also i think avo is saying that it only takes a second to remove the toddler seat before folding, which is also what I find.

Crossed again!! Oh right - yes I was doing that - taking the toddler seat off to fold - I was just wanting to fold it leaving it on as I'm lazy!!! it's a bit stiff too, but probably because the toddler seat is brand new and the buggy is about 2 years old!

Summer that's exactly what dd does, except she falls asleep and won't de-latch at all except to scream and scream and the to relatch it bloody hurts like buggery, and she could do that 10 times! it also sometimes hurt throughout and sometimes not so much but always to latch. ds actually immitates me, and today i latched her on before I went out and ds was watching and ran up and yelled out "oooooooouch" at me and then giggled like a schoolgirl I was nearly in tears again but not sure if it was the pain or the fact that it was so funny that he did that!

That cake sounds inspired, Avo Good job you didn't ask your DD1, as she might have asked for a cake in the shape of St Pancras Station, or perhaps the Winter Palace in St Petersburg

Yep, I have no idea where the revulsion came from. It is definitely not in my rational head, as my rational self tells me bf is a good thing, which is why I applaud anyone who does it. It must be deep seated and would take an army of Harley St psychiatrists to strip away! However, I do agree if Mum had said "I loved bf, it was fabulous" it might have been the one thing in the world that might have made me try harder, though I still doubt I would have ever got over the physical revulsion so it was all a bit doomed from the start.

On a different tack, I don't have a lot of experience of midwives but in my hospital they seemed to cleave neatly into two extreme groups: one lot straight out of The Crucible who thought that ff was spoilt, selfish and decadent and people who had any objection needed a slap round the face and a brisk talking to, and those who thought that bf was a fuss over nothing and why bother. I suspect neither attitude is endorsed by the NHS

Regarding the toddler seat I know, it's quick, I'm just lazy

I'm one to think Homeopathy is bollocks too, and dh well do i need to say? But I was too scared to not take Arnica after feeling so great after ds, but then when i was put on to Surgery Mix, thought I'd give that a go and I can probably say i even felt better this time, so perhaps there's something to say for that. Having said that, my mum just had an op on her lady bits at over 60 and also a hysterectomy as well I think, and healed very fast without taking anything, so perhaps I could be lucky with the healing fast gene which is what dh tends to think - just not as lucky with the BF gene

But at £6 including postage for the lil pills, I thought it can't hurt even if it's bollocks and it gave dh a giggle

Right - off to combo feed dd in a sec.... Gosh we've been chatty....

I haven't got faith in homeopathy either, I put it in the same category as 'touch wood'. However...I am still ordering that Surgery Mix as there is a percentage of me who thinks 'who knows'? Vagola, I know you are massively into it and you find that it works?

I read on the wider board earlier this week that rather than homeopathic arnica, you can actually get products with a highish amount of arnica in.

I do believe in acupuncture for pain though, having seen it alleviate DH's pain for a few hours and there was no one more cynical than me. A friend of his hired the acupuncturist and we were both like "Yeah, RIGHT" and had to eat our words But that is to do with pressure points so I feel there is a scientific/physical explanation why that may work.

Also, I think aromatherapy may work a bit. But that may be because I am into nice smells. A bath is therapy for me.

One of my first jobs here was working on a committee looking into alternative medicines. It was a fascinating project. It was over 10 years ago now but I remember that there are some therapies which are considered "alternative" but for which there is clear evidence of efficacy. These include chiropractice, osteopathy and acupuncture. Well designed clinical trials provide evidence that these therapies are often more effective for back pain and certain other conditions than NHS approved treatments, yet they are not often provided on the NHS because the medical establishment is rather old school and has a hold over the system.

Other therapies such as homeopathy have a more narrow evidence base. Few clinical trials have been done on them. I think there have been a few trails on homeopathic remedies that show a greater effect than just the placebo effect but those results have not always been replicated and the supposed mechanism of action for homeopathy is so bizarre that it is hard to see how it could have any chemical effect.

One theory I have (which would not explain the effects of mail order arnica) is that when you see a homeopath they take a very detailed history and really listen to you before prescribing. I think the belief that someone qualified has taken time to understand what you are going through and is seeking to help you, provides a huge boost. I remember doing a module on doctor-patient communication during my degree and there are trails that show, for example, that if cardiologists talk and listen to their patients for 30 mins before and after bypass surgery then those patients tend to have lower blood pressure, lower pulses, less post-operative swelling and quicker discharge rates than those treated without considered communcation. So I think many orthodox doctors could learn something from the appraoch of homeopaths even if its not about the drugs themselves.

That was a very random post which I think illustrates how much time I have on my hands today. Roll on my last meeting.

uhuh uhuh

Loving vagola...how about vagolamama for the official name?

ladyT Really interesting to hear how you feel about bf. My friend was completely repulsed by the idea of bfing her baby. Yet never ever had an issue about me bf my 2, infact she often commented on how natural itlooked yet she just counldn't face it.

I did feel rather pushed to try bf with DD, as my mum was a MW, and was very pro-bf (even though neither me or my sister was bf). I think the reason I carried on with it and then bf DS was that it was so easy in the night. I could get her from cot to boob and back to bed in about 20 mins without turning the light on. However, i also recall the toe-curling agony of the first few weeks and many a tearful "get me some f*king formula" rants at DH. I was lucky that my nips and DD got used to it, but the pain would test anyone's sanity if it continued for weeks on end.

avo You are a cake baking godess

Re:homeopathy; I got very depressed at a point during Uni, and was determined not to take AD's. My mums friend swore by homeopathy and 'prescribed' a cocktail of different pills which I have to say did help. I expect it probably took longer to sort me out but it did work for me...

Oh and kayz I feel for your 6 weeks apart. But my BIL is in th eRoyal Navy. he went to sea mid-April and is expected home in December. My poor sis is going bonkers 8 months home alone with her 3 boys would do that to a woman!!

Hello Ladies. DS1 & I had our first violin lesson this afternoon and we LOVED it. DS1 is really enthusiastic about it and really loves it.

Lady I find you research idea interesting and think it has more credibility than DH's idea for a study which is finding out if men's breast size preference is based on whether or not they were breast fed. He likes smaller breasted women and he himself was not BF. I'm not quite sure how if I should be offended or not?

My main reasoning for loving Homeopathy is because it was like magic when DS1 was teething. We haven't had as much access to it with DS2 & have had a lot more sleepless nights. Also was brilliant during m DS2's birth.

With the BF thing my mum BF us all, but she's not really militant on it. I'm not really
Militant, in fact I wasn't bothered either way before I had DS1, found the idea of it a bit icky. But after I BFd him I found out more about it and just find it so amazing, really interesting what we can do with our bodies. I guess this all led onto wanting to help others and the political side of it. Though I have to admit I haven't read 'th politics of breastfeefing' yet. It was sounding a bit heavy. Maybe you can fill me in Kiwi at the meet up.