So, apparently there are 5,000 bankers who will get million-pound bonuses this Christmas...

[edam]

wonder whether anyone would back my single-issue 'let's take it ALL off them and raise £5bn to pay off the national debt' party?

Jealous? I'm not jealous. And I'm not bitter towards "bankers" in general and I'm well aware of the utility of banks in the modern world.
I'm bitter at the predominance that finance has gained in our economies, and at the fact that it is solidly linked to politics.

so what exactly in society today isnt solidly linked to politics ?
I also think its tragic that we have no real industry in our country ..I come from a mining area - but I dont see the point in risking ruining whats left of our economy by scapegoating the bankers as the cause of all evil..Its not that simple..if only it were !

And yes..it is cynical..its been a hard year ..

I just can't see anything more powerful than finance in these days.

Aha - here come the bankers wives to defend them on the basis of their 70-80 hour weeks.

I put it to you, ladies, that most of the time (ie not on the eve of a deal) getting on for 20 of those hours per week are about presentee-ism and not about necessity. That's the culture in banking - I quite understand. You get in earlyish for market X to open, then do your time in the gym perhaps mid-afternoon when things have flattened out a bit, then another burst of work late afternoon ...then the early mid-evening period working at an average pace, not able to leave in case you get labelled as a bit of a girl ...

But that aside. Most people work hard most of the time in fact - there's no special universe (except in your imaginations) where bankers work harder and longer than other professions and are thus more deserving ...

Incentive payments as a means of rewarding performance are a jolly good idea in my view. They are used in many industries, not just banking ...

But if my taxes are going to be used to pay for your nanny, ladies, then I would like to see exactly what your husbands have done to deserve this money.

So here is one more criteria to add to my list of things I'd like RBS (and all the rest of them) to do:
*publish the targets against which the bonuses are judged and publish what Banker X did to earn his keep - just like what happens in the public sector (salaries are published, expenses scrutinised etc). Even the Queen is held to account in this way. (Have you taken your mum on the tour around Buckingham Palace lately - her Maj could definitely do with some new carpets...)

In fact, let me go a stage further - if taxpayers money is keeping a bank going, let's also see how the running costs are managed. Flowers on reception - is that necessary? Desks with posh veneers - are they necessary? And so on ...

Risk of business moving to Paris? Mr Sarkozy is saying, publicly at least, that he's planning to implement a bonus tax himself. See you in Paris, then ...

Society to collapse if bankers bonuses are not paid? Get a grip - the melting polar ice caps are gonna get us first.

It's the regulators fault? Well, I happen to agree with whoever suggested there should be more regulation. And I hope this Government will seize on the opportunity to put more regulation in place with both hands. When times were good the bankers were just too powerful to cross, it seemed. But now they are on the back foot its time to get their house in order for them, as they won't do it themselves.

BTW to whoever said this is an ill-informed thread ... Give the public more information about what publicly-supported bankers actually do to earn their bonuses and perhaps they'll agree that the millions are worth it.

well that just shows how little you know about the realities of those who work hard in the banking industry ...
a 70- 80 hour week would be fantastic.. gym in office hours ? are you for real ? My husband doesnt even get a lunch break !
My hubby starts at 4.30 am and works til 8.30 at night - at least five days a week..this week and last he worked all weekend too..

For the record we wont be in the running for a bonus - we arent in that category - I just hate the way people think they understand the situation when they so clearly dont.. its that whole "dont judge someone until you have walked a mile in their shoes thing.."

and for the record - we dont have a nanny - or a holiday home and my clothes are bought on the high street ...

things are just not that clear cut - and it would be such a nicer world if people could learn to stop attacking people for their occupations !

I'm guessing duritzfan's dh belongs to the other 995,000. who, if this thread is anything to go by are as equally deserving of utter approbrium, regardless of the size of their salary, regardless of the nature of their actual job and regardless of which bank they work for.

I laughed too at the idea of sloping off to the gym. And at the idea of a UK without any bankers. marvellous idea. and, tbh, that bankers are any more homogenous than engineers. completely ridiculous.

Let me be clear Hatwoman, Durtizfan and others, as I have been clear throughout ...

Bankers -- do I object to their profession, per se and want to see them all drowned in the Thames, no.

Do I think their work makes a contribution to GNP, yes.

Do I think banks that have been bailed out with taxpayers money should moderate their bonuses at the top end/be publicly accountable for their spend - yes.

Would be taking the same stance if it were engineers on the stand, yes.

Are there plenty of other people in plenty of other professions in fear of their jobs, currently putting in long hours, yes. Are they intrinsically more worthy people than bankers, no. Are bankers more worthy than them, no.

Should we be reasonable/cave in to bankers special pleading about their predilection for hard work, their intrinsic worth to the British economy, absolutely not.

Instead of coming on here wailing about how most people who work in banks like everyone else are just normal, earning normal amounts of money and thus bankers should not be demonised, why do not the 995000 of you get together and demand the 5000 stop giving the rest of you a bad name?

As for the gym ... tell me it's lying there empty and abandoned and show me the CCTV footage to prove it, go on now.

wasn't wailing particularly - and I agree with the vast majority of what you just said. in fact - just looked at it again - and I agree with all of it. the only things I was commenting on were the ridiculousness of the "they should all fuck off" line; and the tendency to demonise all bankers. looks like you're not guilty of either of these, but they have made an appearance on this thread. I was also disputing the idea that they slope off in droves to the gym in working hours. some might - but they'll still be doing a 60-plus hour week so can't say it bothers me.

and I'm not a banker.

MrsBaldwin you are a small-minded, insulting, arrogant ass for the ignorant comments you are making here.

You silly fool, you don't even realise that a lot of jobs in banking have nothing to do with "the markets". My husband works in project finance. He doesn't take a blind bit of notice of "the markets" and his job has absolutely nothing to with trading. He is often so busy he misses meals. We can go for days not seeing each other or even talking. He works incredibly hard.

You are thinking of traders based on the images you have seen in old fashioned stock exchange footage of bawdy men in stripy jackets yelling "Sell." Hardly anybody in a bank does this. At least have an idea of what you are talking about before you come on a thread like this.

I assume you have a low paid job. I'm sorry you made some bad choices in life. I also assume you contribute little in the way of taxes. My husband contributes plenty in taxes to this country - so shut up and be grateful there are people like him propping you up.

Now will you tell us all what you do for a living so we can belittle and insult you and tell you you're a waste of space?

I'd rather we were an overall poorer country but with less very rich people - ie more equal - so if the financial sector has to move elsewhere, good luck to their new homelands. we're amongst the most depressed people on earth with a widening gap between the poor (which will be most of us in a few years time) and the rich (those bankers, the landed gentry, oligarchs blah blah). does it really seem a good idea to anyone right now that 40% of our gdp comes from the financial sector? sounds like overspecialising in a dodgy industry to me

B&S you didn't read my post, I know lots of people in investment banking including a member of my family and v high profile ex colleague 'in retirement' at a large charity, I even know an RBS investment banker! However, there is nothing wrong with forming an opinion from reading current affairs.

IMO the engineer is more skilled and valuable to society than a banker, I am entitled to my opinion and you are entitled to yours.

Please note you have come down on me like a ton of bricks not the other way round! Insulting me personally is a weak response and I certainly said nothing hateful about anyone, that was you my dear.

As for the snobbish 'tabloid' comment to quote the late, great Ted Wragg I was so incensed I nearly spilt my brown ale over my whippet.......

Since her response to my post B&S has got even more insulting and desperate to defend DHs bonus. Was anyone even talking about her husband? Does she think the banks that were bailed out should provide bonuses as well as bail out? Can she think beyond her own little set up?

Er MrsBaldwin I would love to know how you know so much about what time bankers start and finish work, what they do all day and even how many hours they spend in the gym. Are you a security guard at a bank???

This "presenteeism" you speak of is simply not true. It might be for some, as in any job, but the bankers I have worked alongside in my time work bloody hard actually. A damn sight harder than me that's for sure.

I don't know if they work harder than you but I certainly wouldn't presume one way or the other. Because, you see, I don't know you and have no way of knowing what time you set your alarm for. You, on the other hand, appear to know everything.

I must give the baby some breakfast rather than typing for too long on here but ...

... all this hard hard work and all these long hours. It don't seem right do it?

How about we spilt all the finance jobs requiring a 70-80 hour week in two - so that there are no financiers having to miss meals.

The extra salary bill is paid for out of the bonus pool

This would cut unemployment too ...

They'd have time to see their wives and children too.

In fact it sounds positively Utopian

What was that about poor life choices again?

don't see anyone complaining about footballers getting paid the salaries they do (£200k a week anyone)?

and what about the directors of Rover, who walked off with millions while their workers were left with nothing?

there are several other examples of people (normally directors) getting millions and millions of pounds while their companies fail

I think encouraging the banks to look at longer term pay strategies is a good thing. But no, to target their industry like this is totally misguided. It is a cornerstone of our economy (currently) and let's not forget, that most of this started with subprime debt in the US.

Yes, they needed bailing out. Yes, they must pay it back (and I think there should be more publicity about who has paid what back and how much is left to go). This isn't the first industry that has been bailed in UK history - several have.

I just wish we could see a government who wanted to encourage investment in this country.

ah i see someone mentioned footballers further down

blimey B&S you don't do your cause any favours you know - personal insults and assumptions like bad choices, low income, and smaller contribution to society.

just saw this one "As an engineer he is far more skilled and valuable than a banker". - a silly generalisation. there are many aspects of banking that are far more complex and technical than aspects of engineering. and vice versa. and in fact some highly technical stuff from both sectors coincides. I happen to know, rather well, someone with a phd in engineering who is a banker. he used complex mathematical modelling, algorithms and fuzzy logic in both his phd and his job.

a seperate, but related point, is that plenty of aspects of banking are highly technical and the people that do them are highly skilled.

and a third reponse to other comments on here - some bankers have a good work-life balance. because they chose to forego huge bonuses in favour of shorter wording hours. not typical, but not unheard of. they're not all money-grabbing testestorone-fuelled ijeets

The prejudices on this thread are incredible. Bankers are not a homogeneous breed of people into risk taking,with no morals,who are money grabbing, posh anti-northern- talent less and qualification- less - some are but so are some engineers and even some nurses. The one thing about the banking industry is that it is a mertitocracy and if you are no good at what you do you don't get rewarded for it- your job is on the line. you work hard and long hrs- not to prove a point but because you have to to prove that you are better than the next person.

The bonus thing is often a red herring - if it was called salary would everyone think it was equally awful?

My bank - didn't do commercial/residential lending, had very little securitisation stuff, was forced to take Government money ( and paid it back as soon as possible)only pays out money when it has made profits- and even then gives staff a large proportion of shares which they can't sell - last year people took home a huge percentage less than in 2007 and around 25% of people lost their jobs - I'm at a loss to know what else we are supposed to do- why are we worse than the sort of exgovt monoplolies such as railways, Royal mail who fail to make their targets and take government money, pay huges bonuses, gold plated pensions etc?

I think if you earn more you should pay more tax - but this can be done within the tax system fairly accross all industries - why single out banking?

One final point- why do people only talk about irresposnible lending- I was brought up to believe you borrowed intending to repay- no-one forced people to borrow irresponsibly

So Alcatraz thinks her engineer friend is "more skilled and valuable than a banker". That's a bit rude isn't it? Imagine if that comment was made the other way round. Seems it's ok to attack anyone who works in a bank, as if they are all peas in a pod and the rest of society is beyond reproach. You do know that bankers pay taxes too don't you? More than your average worker actually. All this "we bailed you out" nonsense is very short-sighted.

MrsB you are being very patronising (and I suspect having a bit of fun winding people up) I would absolutely love to know what your job is/was. And how you have such detailed day-to-say knowledge of bankers' lives. You seem to have the whole situation all sewn up.

Great posts from Mrs Baldwin and Sanfairyann.

hope the IMF gets somewhere with this proposed tax on financial transactions. Interesting that Sarkozy is supporting Brown - anyone know what size the French financial sector is?

FWIW I do object very strongly indeed to the Rover directors, should have been a law against it - but I hardly think bankers will win public sympathy by saying, ooh, at least we aren't as bad as those rip-off merchants.

And of course footballers are hugely over-paid but at least they haven't had to be rescued with hundreds of billions of pounds of public money. Don't compare with bankers at all.

Also notice Philip Auger in the FT thinks the City appears more concerned to protect its own pay packet than to play a responsible role in society.

Can the City workers/wives on here not agree that the financial services industry should play a responsible role in society? And that the biggest economic crisis since the 20s shows that we need to address this urgently - that things cannot carry on as before? Seems eminently reasonable to me.

Edam of course everybody thinks that some bankers have behaved appallingly. I don't think anyone has said otherwise have they? What's annoying people is the implication that every last person working in a bank is the spawn of the devil! Yes, there is definitely a certain amount of guilt-by-association and collective responsibility but some comments on here have been just downright offensive. And reveal some people's innate resentment of what they perceieve to be an elite.

Things are being addressed. Things will not carry on as before. That should be enough shouldn't it? Yet some peope on here seem to want far more than a pound of flesh. Nothing less than every person working in a bank (secretaries/security guards/tea-lady included? Where do you draw the line?) hung, drawn and quartered will satisfy.

That's what's getting people's backs up. The generalisations and stereotypings.

Of course banks need to play a responsible role in society.

The reason why banking exists is that society and the economy works much better if there is someone to manage the flow of money (e.g. someone who is able and willing to lend you money to set up a business, repayable at a fixed interest rate with life insurance). This is obviously a responsible role - overseen by a national regulator.

On a fluffier level, banks are often major supporters of charities/arts/sending staff out to work with education projects/taking in interns from the local community.

I suspect you didn't mean 'responsible role in society'. I think you meant 'get a beating to make us feel better'.

Banking as an industry was not 'rescued'. Lehman - one of the the biggest investment banks - was allowed to sink. Plenty of others merged or shrank. The remaining banks have done well not least because the there is 'a bigger slice of the pie' for the institutions left standing, and the economic outlook in general is looking better.

The actions taken by the government last year were targeted towards rescuing the property market. RBS was rescued in view of its high street operations, to prevent Northern Rock II. It is unfortunate, IMO that they did not spin off its investment banking arm immediately. Support to banks came with explicit requirements that they lend more mortgages esp. to first time buyers to 'unstick the property market'. Stamp duty was reduced; government backed shared ownership schemes were launched.

I made a point earlier point about profit from the sale of your house being tax free, whereas profit from labour in the banking industry now has a top tax band of 75%. This is set a level which will catch people earning total wages comparable to a lawyer/top engineer/hospital consultant - so it is very specifically targeting one industry rather than 'high earners'.

I think all companies and individuals should play a responsible role in society - edam what specifically do you mean for Banks to do?

Great, so at least we can all agree on that. Because at times during this thread it looked like parallel universes, as if the pro-banker lobby hadn't noticed the crash and thought everything could and should carry on as before.

Now we seem to be getting somewhere... so, what ideas does everyone have for making banks responsible to society? (Chucking a few quid at the Royal Opera house does not count.)