So, apparently there are 5,000 bankers who will get million-pound bonuses this Christmas...

[edam]

wonder whether anyone would back my single-issue 'let's take it ALL off them and raise £5bn to pay off the national debt' party?

Funny thread. You would think after more than a year, people would have a better idea of what has happened and why.

"why i was against bailing them out in the first place"

If confidence stayed low and banks collapsed, what exactly were you planning to use in place of money?

"I used to work in the City and have nothing against fairly earned bonuses but none of these are fairly earned - they all depend entirely on tax payer bailouts"

If you have indeed worked in a financial institution before, you should know that (1) bonuses depend on departmental & personal targets (i.e. my deal earned corporate finance department £100mn, so I get £500K etc) and (2) most if not all top people have these bonuses written into their contracts, so that IF their work earned certain amount of money to the bank, they WILL get the % bonus defined in their legally binding employment contract, regardless of whether or not their bank received state aid. As such, they are "fairly earned" and legal bonuses.

"the very people who made the mess and are still being bailed out by the taxpayer, getting big payouts"

"Bankers" is not a single organism and not even a single business. If we are to point fingers, culprits would be commercial bankers who lent recklessly and cooker-uppers of complex financial products, but all that is a small minority of "bankers". Since both businesses have dried up to a trickle in the last 12 months, my guess would be that very few people in those businesses are still employed, and they didn't make enough money this year to get any bonuses (if it makes you feel better).

"the idea that the bankers are soooo clever and soooo talented that they simply MUST earn million pound bonuses"

Those who earn million £ bonuses do so not because they are clever, but because they bring in hundreds of millions in revenue.

'If confidence stayed low and banks collapsed, what exactly were you planning to use in place of money?'

If . . . hypothetical.

We have no idea what exactly would have happened if they hadn't been bailed out.

Maybe you have no idea.

These banks would soon be unable to meet their short term obligations because they could no longer borrow in the interbank market. Which dried up because a few banks went under, of course. This means they would go bust rather quickly, which is why they were "bailed out".

BTW does anyone actually believe that the economy would go to rack and ruin if all the bankers left? I think they could easily be replaced with some of the bright young graduates who are currently unemployed, after all banking is hardly brain surgery, not the way these people were doing it anyway, more like internet poker!

Cote if all doctors stopped working tomorrow there would be a disaster, but doctors don't jump up and down demanding tax payers subsidised bonuses.

They don't hold their their bosses to ransome and demand EXTRA pay for doing what is their job. The bankers are so wrapped up in their world of money they lose sight of the fact that other jobs are just as worthwhile and bankers do not make the world go round.

'Maybe you have no idea.'

Maybe you haven't, either, since, unless you're a character from a Harry Potter novel, it's impossible to predict the exact outcome of many events before they come to pass.

Lots of people "never put a foot wrong, work damn hard and make a lot of money for their company" - doesn't stop them losing their jobs if the company goes bust. Do you think bankers give a flying fuck or would shed a tear for anyone working in any other industry? Why should we offer them even more support than the extraordinary levels we already have?

Banks and the bankers have been rescued by the taxpayer and are now effectively public servants - even those that weren't officially bailed out are only still standing because the government printed money.

All these attempted justifications ultimately boil down to the sort of 'we're so special, 'we're so talented' crap that bankers peddled in the boom years. Now they've brought the world economy to its knees, but they are still selling the same old story.

It doesn't wash any more.

And they are welcome to fuck off overseas if they wish - then maybe we can get the economy back on a sound footing instead of government being in thrall to the financial services industry and letting everything else dwindle.

I too agree that the system is very wrong. And that -sadly - Finance is one of the most (or the most) important political actor in our world. Very sad situation.

I thought part of the deal with banks being bailed out by taxpayers' billions was that they were supposed to increase lending to small businesses to help boost the economy

apparently this has not happened at RBS

seems like they have taken the money and run

I can't bear the arrogance of it

Investment bankers on at Morgan Stanley don't need to worry so much about bonuses. They had their base salaries doubled in March, because they saw this controversy coming

oh FFS, why are regulators and govt. letting them get away with this?

Because, I fear, they are incredibly powerful

You are right that govts. are scared but bankers are only powerful because no-one stands up and points out the emperor is wearing no clothes.

Bailing them out means the removal of moral hazard so they think they can do what they like. Bastards.

I might be in a pessimistic mood tonight, but I fear that the world of finance is actually more powerful or at least closely linked to many, many governments.

Franca I agree.

Sadly it is the breathtaking disregard of the "little man" I find galling.(Even though millions of the "Little men/women have bailed them out through their taxes)

My db is a fairly bright chap.He has recently taken up employment on a GTS with a well known yet non finance company.They only took on 2 graduates this year.

As the initial part of his graduate scheme he has to spend a few months in the Big Smoke delivering parcels,as the company is a delivery company.The idea is that the grasuates get a handle on the company from bottom up.

Anyhow db is from Northern climes and thus has An Accent.The other day he was delivering a parcel to a well known financial institution on Canary Wharf.Cue,on him handing over a parcel to some bigwig finance asshole, said asshole exclaimed "Oh,theres a fucking blue collar accent if ever I heard one" and proceeded to phsl.To his credit db looked the guy in the eye and stated "Well,I may have a Northern accent,but at least I don't swear at people and I can hand on heart say as far as I know I have never had the misfortune to work for an organisation that loses people billions" and walked off.

oh quite. But we need someone to stand up to these vested interests. If there's a hung parliament after the next election, I do hope that nice Vince Cable gets to be Chancellor...

Well said Cote d'Azur some sense at last. The trouble here is that most of the people commenting have very little idea of what goes on in investment banks or the myriad reasons that led to the recession and just absorb every morsel of banker-bashing they read in the Daily Mail.

Edam you really do not know what you are talking about. You seem very vitriolic towards people you do not even know. "Do you think bankers give a flying fuck"... I'm sorry, what are you basing this on? Have you met them all? What gives you the right to judge the morals of others?

Why are people assuming that everyone who works in a bank, in any department, is an immoral bastard? This is so insulting.

Mavis you do realise that people who work in banks pay taxes too don't you? Did somebody actually withdraw extra cash out of your bank account to bail out RBS? Are you out of pocket because of it? It's a shame your brother was insulted over his accent. Hardly a reason to hate everyone in Canary Wharf though, surely?

Edam This is the most absurd thing you have said so far!

"They are welcome to fuck off overseas if they wish - then maybe we can get the economy back on a sound footing instead of government being in thrall to the financial services industry and letting everything else dwindle."

How exactly would you propose "getting the economy back on a sound footing" once you've closed all the banks? Seriously, tell us. I'd love to know!

but why is somebody who predicts the worth of commodities on a screen worth THOUSANDS more than the poor SHO I last worked nights with who had responsibility for the lives of 100+ people on his watch and had worked the last 4 weekends on nights as well as covering the day shifts?For a pittance in comparison for city commodities type folks?

Money is worth more than human life,evidently.

Mavis Nobody is saying they are worth more as a human being. But they are certainly worth more in financial terms because they create money. It's just true. If you make money for people for a living, you are always going to be better paid than somebody whose job doesn't make money for anyone.

You are free to choose the career path you take.

Tell me why footballers earn such obscene amounts of money for kicking a ball around on a Saturday afternoon? Are they worth more than your colleague, worth more in human terms? Of course not. But the trite thing they do happens to make a lot of money and they are entitled to their cut.

Entitled after their disasterous decisions?Am thinking RBS and Northern Rock,here!

Of course not.

They FAILED.

If a star footballer had had an equivalent season he would probably be on the bench.

doesn't wash.

one rule for the haves and fuck the have nots.

Spose it has always been like that.

total shite,though.

For goodness sake, they didn't all fail.

But most of those who did are "on the bench". They got sacked. Don't you remember this time last year when loads of bankers were sacked? The guilty ones and a hell of a lot of decent ones too. What more do you want?

What do i want?

Decent regulation of the financial industry for starters.

I am just a mere pt nurse on a low wage.

My bank often sends me silly letters to borrow thousands.

Luckily I have never been in debt due to careful financial planning.

However,lots of people are due to irresponsible lending.

A curb on this.

A curb on offering silly mortgage deals.

Now I know a lot of this has come into play but it needs to be ongoing.

A recognition from those earning huge anmounts that they cannot be entitled to it just because,it needs to be regulated and earned according to good practice.

Actuallly,similar regulation to my job,which is endless and ongoing and weeds out any bad apples.

I am not sily enough to think that money DOESN'T make the world go round but a little humility,and recognition that such huge bonuses can be perceived as obscene by the little man/woman and require close scrutiny and justification.

This thread has got me to thinking about The Hitchikers Guide To The Galaxy. Anyone remember the bit where the doomed spaceship crashes on prehistoric earth with Arthur Dent and Ford Prefect on board? The rest of the passengers on the spaceship were the 'useless' third of society from a faraway planet - including telephone sanitisers and other comic catergories of 'non-job'.

Anyway what I am coming to is remaking Alcatraz's point in different words. I'm really interested to see what happens if all the bankers who say they're going to up sticks and move elsewhere. But I bet the answer is 'nothing at all' ie the gaps they leave are filled by others and life goes on as normal.

The people in the banking superclass move about a lot anyway, it seems to me - few years in Dubai, HongKong, Wall Street etc. I bet there are some American and Chinese bankers who'd fancy a nice little stint in ye olde London and the size of their bonus above a certain level wouldn't be a deal breaker because there are also other reasons to come here.

banking is hardly brain surgery, not the way these people were doing it anyway, more like internet poker! You are so right Alcatraz

Finance should be more controlled by central governments but it will never happen.