Should we tolerate this in the UK?

[Justinthekitchen]

I am aware that other cultures have different values and traditions, but should we really be tolerating this sort of behaviour in the UK?

https://www.dailymail.com/news/article-16199187/Exposed-British-imams-telling-men-beat-wives-say-NO-sex-police-ministers-failing-crack-them.html

Yet it seems that certain political parties are willing to turn a blind eye to this sort of thing so that they can secure votes from a certain section of the electorate who often vote as a family unit.

I really thought we had moved on from this sort of thing in the West, but disappointingly it seems I am sadly mistaken.

Lemonfrost, looking back through this thread, I have not been able to see a single bit of condemnation from you for what these Islamic Imams have been preaching.

So can I just ask, will you unconditionally condemn their behaviour? Will you also agree with me that their behaviour should not be tolerated in the UK?

Can you bring yourself to do it?

We have it now - used to dissolve marriage or solve financial disputes- with the tacit agreement of all involved- in Islam the financial and legal rights of women in divorce are outlined in the Koran- the only religious text to do so.

We live in the UK and our laws will always override religious practice in law so you don’t need to stress - it’s only practiced by Muslims.

Judging by the speed of imports, and the birthrate of those who are already here, it is almost certain that if the trend continues, Britain will be a majority Muslim country at some point in the not too distant future. Make of that what you will but I wonder if we will remain a country tolerant of women's rights, of homosexuals, etc. if this becomes the reality.

Your first post on this thread was whataboutism, saying that because white British men are violent, OP shouldn't be posting about this, OP should be posting about white British men.

You literally said she shouldn't have posted this thread. That feels like minimising.

As for British men 'occasionally' inflicting domestic abuse - Google tells me that 1 in 20 men, roughly, inflict VAWGs, or 5%. Is that occasional? I'd say that's not an inappropriate word to describe the spread. On a population level, it is 'occasional' - although occasional is still far too frequent for something that should be vanishingly rare.

Occasionally?! You’re really showing your true colours here OP and they’re not pretty

Our laws only override religious practice at the moment because the UK is a democratic, predominantly Christian led country. But Labour and the Greens (with their denial of October 7th and covering up of the rape gangs) are already pandering to the Muslim vote. And laws can be easily overturned as our demographic and voter base shifts.

Because ALL religions have extreme views within its many sects - Trump, a supposed Christian- condemned The Pope!
I am able to separate the mainstream from the extremism- I can condemn the extremism views while not seeing it as representing the religion as a whole- I was raised Christian but have nothing in common with right wing fundamentalism ditto most Muslims will not be onboard with this view!

True colours? What do you mean?

Because this thread was posted about a particular Islamic preacher, preaching a particular thing, so that is the primary topic to be commented on. It's blatant whataboutism and dismissal to immediately try to deflect to Christian preachings in the US without commenting on the actual article, and to accuse the OP of racism for sharing the article and having concerns.

I'll happily discuss the negative aspects of all religions and how they constrain and harm women's rights, and many a time on Mumsnet I've talked about the disgusting excess of male violence and misogyny within western cultures - but I dislike it when women are called racist for pointing out male violence, and told they shouldn't have posted about it because of the perpetrator's culture.

94% of the UK isn’t Muslim so I don’t worry about it

Do all religions go around driving cars at high speed into crowded Christmas markets?

If most Muslims are not in favour of the child rape gangs in Rotherham, Luton, London, and many other deprived city areas, why have the more moderate ones not spoken out against them?

Even Sadiq Khan refused to condemn or acknowledge them.

Yet has been proved a liar

Yes I do know this but again, I go back to the point whereby this was common practice in England until 100-ish years ago. My childhood neighbour (who was stereotypically British) had her first child at 14 and married at 13. She died in the early 2000’s but was still married to the same man she wed as a child and from what I gather lived a happy life. It was the norm in her time. No European muslim in their right mind would think that was appropriate or normal in this day and age! If they did, I’d be questioning their sanity and intellect.

Also if you look back to where this principle came from, it was related to puberty and given there was no definitive age for adulthood back then, puberty was used as a determination of adulthood so the actual proscription came from the principle that you were ready for marriage upon hitting puberty. I could go further and explain that the reasons included protecting the sanctity of marriage as post-pubity, hormones are flying all over along with desires etc etc but it made logical sense for that time period. However, if anybody in this day and age thought it was appropriate or normal for a 12 year old to get married, I would be horrified!

Then why do so many Muslim-majority countries seem to have such terrible women's rights, in comparison to countries that are majority Christian?

To be clear, that's not to say that Christian countries can't have poor women's rights, because the whole world is misogynistic - but overall, there is a clear difference in the degree and extent of misogyny, and just how enshrined in the law it is.

The only way to end this shitshow, is to use your vote to put a stop to this abhorrent behaviour.

Funnily enough strict Sharia Law should condemn these types of views as they’re incompatible with the religion if it’s followed properly. If it doesn’t condemn it then ironically it’s not true sharia law . 🤷🏽‍♀️

Sharia Law can only be implemented to the extent that it remains compatible with the law of the land you live in. E.g inheritance provisions, child maintenance etc. Quite a common issue that creeps up is people going to a sharia law court to determine maintenance but it isn’t legally binding as British law requires less financial provision towards children/spouses than sharia law does.

I firmly believe that the only bad Muslims are the ones who are bad people. As with any religion, there will always be bad people and extreme views that don’t reflect the majority.

I agree with you that this is a HUGE problem. However, much of this stems from the fact that most of those countries are filled with uneducated people who live in poverty. They know no better and have not developed as we have in the west. Having been to some of those countries, they don’t even know how to do some basic things like use a European toilet! If they can’t get their heads around basics like that, what hope is there of educating them about important things that are so ingrained?!? There are numerous reports of daughters being sold to pay their parents debts, barbaric sexual violence, murders and much more. The majority of these crimes are males against women and that’s a problem worldwide irrespective of religion or culture.

You will be horrified to read the numerous reports about the treatment of Hindu women in many Indian villages and Christian women in many African villages. Some of the practices carried out in those places are truly barbaric. It’s not a reflection of the religions as a whole but it is an example of how culture can really affect the way in which religion is practiced and how much of a difference education and integration can make in shaping the future.

Have you not heard of Andrew Tate and his brother? Andrew has over 10 million followers on X. Banned from other social media sites

Sadly they're being extradited back to the UK.

This topic infuriates me. It really does. Sadly there are many Asian girls who are groomed too. They’re not reported about in the media as it doesn’t fit the narrative. The south asian culture doesn’t want to talk about it because they worry about the stigma that will be attached to their daughter/sisters/wives etc. They’re voices that rarely get heard and victims that in turn are ignored as they carry a desire to hide their shame rather than to get justice. The community is its own worst enemy in that sense as if it stopped treating girls as promiscuous and accepted them as victims then perhaps it would be harder to keep peddling the narrative of all grooming gangs being made up of Asian men targeting white girls. Again this stems back to culture not religion as grooming and coercing somebody to do something against their free will goes against religion.

I worked as a child protection solicitor for over 15 years and can wholeheartedly say during that time, I dealt with more white grooming gangs than I did Asian. The majority of groomers were men and the common denominator in their victims was never race, it was vulnerability.

For any practicing muslim, sex before marriage isn’t allowed so there is no justification based on religion that would ever allow grooming. Again, bad individuals not necessarily automatically the religion to blame but the media doesn’t let us separate the two!

With regard to condemning the gangs. I’d say when you’re asked to condemn them because you share a religion not because it’s a heinous crime full stop, it is offensive as once again it feels like you’re blaming the religion rather than the individuals themselves! Personally, if I were asked to condemn grooming gangs on the basis that I shared the same religion as the perpetrators, I’d be angry. If I was to condemn them because I was of the same gender as the victims, I’d be shouting from the rooftops (as I often do). I’ve spent a lot of time volunteering for organisations like Karma Nivana who actively work on these sorts of issues alongside my work as a CP solicitor. What you see in the media is a drop in the ocean.

That's a very good point – poverty and lack of education is definitely a huge contributing factor that I overlooked. Thank you!