Is Reform done for?

[anotherside]

The last several recent national polls indicate that the election of Burnham as leader has seen Labour retake the lead and would probably form a minority government (or better) if an election was held tomorrow. Reform meanwhile is in the low 20s, while they’re were averaging low 30s just six months ago. Do you think it’s game over for Reform in terms of the next election? Is Burnham enough to secure the next election for Labour? Or could Reform claw it back still?

It doesn't matter which party is more corrupt. Labour never have and never will be free of it, the same as the others. The expenses fiddle some years back should tell you that.

Its simple to say. Complex to achieve. Because we have barriers to those things that will challenge any government. Investment is needed to address failing services and theres is no consensus on where the money comes from. Our population is aging and unhealthy, and those who are not must support them. We have little industry to speak of. Wealth continues to move away from the majority towards a tiny minority at frightening pace. Global events over which we have no control impact us.
I think we are at a point where we need to be realistic and accept that small improvements and a long term plan are the best anyone can offer us right now. Until we do, we are just going to be locked in a cycle of throwing out one thing for another, chasing the impossible.

Which Labour politician got £5m given to them personally and almost immediately made a policy announcement that was very nice for the donor?

I think the scale of corruption - and the defree to which it directly influences political decisions, is important. Do you have an argument as to why it's "much the same"?

This is a false equivalence to try and absolve Farage et al from the scrutiny required over their corrupt “donations”. There is no comparison between getting multi million pound bungs and someone claiming for a Twix.

You're measuring corruption by its monetary value. Therefore, you're diluting the meaning of being corrupt.

And you’re denying that there are degrees of corruption and different variables. Huge bungs to gain political influence are very high on the scale.

Yes, yes we are measuring it on a scale. Its not simply black and white. The scale has Trump and Farage at one end and people who claim for a Twix at the other. Because wrongly claiming an expense is a whole different level to taking multi million pound bungs and then trying to avoid scrutiny.

Where would we place Lord Alli's bungs, on this scale?

I think its a valid measure. More will be expected from the recipient of a £5m bribe than of a twix. The recipient knows that and their acceptance is a guide to how far they'd be prepared to go.
Then there are other measures that come into play when deciding which is worse. The potential impact on democracy of the corruption. The persons role, and whether they are rank and file or the person who sets the tone for their party.
There is no point in comparing the Farage situation with petty indiscretions on the part of Labour politicians. The only meaningful comparison would be if it was discovered that Andy Burnham had received a personal gift of £5m he refused to explain. But so far, he's squeaky.

Labour also don’t have people with sufficient skills to govern, hence why the country’s economy is in the state it is. Corruption at the top? I thought at first you were referring to the Labour Cabinet? Performance in local councils?? You know how every council is performing? Our local council is now Reform ran and they are doing very well. Maybe look at how all the bankrupt Labour councils are doing? Birmingham? Well let’s just see how Burnham with his profligate spending goes on, but I think he will bankrupt the country both morally and financially. I didn’t vote for Reform but may do in the future.

Aw but Burnhams coup is totally acceptable? Costing the tax payer thousands? Don’t agree with any corruption or criminal activity but then I have never been charged and found guilty of either, not even the small matter of theft of a mobile phone! Corruption and criminality is exactly the same regardless of the monetary value involved. Lord Ali?

That’s already been answered.

The only meaningful comparison would be if it was discovered that Andy Burnham had received a personal gift of £5m he refused to explain. But so far, he's squeaky.

And it’s not the monetary value, it’s what the donor expects in return.

It’s worse when Labour are corrupt as their whole premise is that they are for the people. The hypocrisy is breathtaking.

I prefer when people are honest that we can’t all help everyone.

When has any government ever promised to help everyone? Every government has different priorities.

Your percieved negativity as to the skills of the current government don't correlate to additional skills and experience in Reform though, do they? Its like saying you think your manager is rubbish, so let's replace them with the apprentice we caught with his hand in the till.
Reform are demonstrably short of quality people. Why else did they fight the most importantant by election of their existence with a candidate as poor as Kenyon?
As for saying when I spoke of corruption you thought I meant Labour not Reform, you'd have go some to justify that.
Its good you're satisfied with your Reform council. I'm highly dusatisfied with mine, who are unfortunately reflective of the daily news stories of in fighting, arrests, bullying, forced resignations and defections that seem to characterise Reform administrations.
Can you say a little more about how Burnham is going to morally bankrupt the country? That's quite the accusation. What do you mean, and what has he said or done to make you fear this descent into immorality?

Lord Ali??

The Lord Alli donations to Starmer were declared and about £32k, iirc. Farage's £5m wasn't declared at all.

I did not vote Reform. All corruption and criminality are abhorrent regardless of the level. Labour have already been proven to be corrupt, Lord Ali? Labour front bench criminality? Reform have not been found guilty of any wrong doings, that I know of, at the present time. If they are then I will just as appalled as I am with the present Government.

What do you think Lord Alli wanted or received in return for the donations that the recipients declared? Farage is guilty of wrongdoing, he didn’t declare a seven figure donation in accordance with parliamentary rules.

Is Farage guilty though?? It has not been proven? You seem to think that you are judge and jury just because they don’t belong to your beloved Labour, but seem to accept any Labour misdemeanour”s. I have the normal British mindset innocent until proven guilty. If guilty then he will get his deserved punishment.

Not initially it wasn’t, and was not a good look for a PM.

Was Starmer guilty of a misdemeanour i.r.o Lord Alli's donations?

I find it difficult to imagine that someone going to great effort to defend and minimise the issues with Reform, while at the same time exaggerating and amplifying any and all issues with Labour, and throwing in some unsubstantiated doom mongering about what they think Burnham will do, is really a neutral undecided voter, who 'may' vote Reform.
Your bias in their favour is very apparant. Which is your right. But there's no point trying to present as an objective open minded observer. If you like the look of Reform's gib, why not support them properly, by explaining what's good about them?

The donations were declared on time. What happened was that they were "re-categorised". Which was a bit off, but the fact is the donations were declared on time. So no misdemeanour.

Yes it was. Nobody would have known about it without the declaration.