Why would Reform voters accept that they will scrap the NHS?

[NEGUY82]

Even when you present them with pretty undeniable proof they wants to do it they just say "lefty propaganda, he said he won't" - well of course he says he won't it would cost him the election.

Farage would have to be suicidal to actually scrap the NHS altogether No one would actually allow it regardless of who was in government and there would be outrage.

He said it need’s reforming. You won’t be getting your credit card out to pay for treatment, it won’t be like that even if Reform got into government. It would also take years to reorganise. Lots of years.

The NHS isn’t actually free though. I paid £500 in income tax on pay day, I’d say quite a bit would have gone towards the NHS or social care. So I’m technically paying for medical treatment anyway.

We wont have an American model and no America won’t own the NHS. It’s fact less lies based on left wing hype.

It won’t happen and I’m surprised people genuinely think this.

Having seen the way Farage kowtows to Trump and how desperate US healthcare companies are to expand their footprint in our healthcare system, then yes, I believe that this could happen if we end up with a Reform government.

Farage is the ultimate grifting sack of shit, I wouldn’t put anything past him. He’s already said PM doesn’t pay enough so he must be getting something extra out of it, it’s probably why he spends so much time in the states, doing deals with their insurance companies.

There isn't the same state v private split though. In France everyone is entitled to buy the top up insurance and their state of health is not a consideration.

The big bucks come rolling in after a person is PM and Farage will be laying his future revenue streams. If Farage helps one of Trump’s health insurance company friends make money from the UK then it will guarantee him a revenue stream in the US after he’s PM.

There’s no real consequences siphoning public money to your mates as the Covid contracts debacle has demonstrated. You might be questioned by a government enquiry but not sure if they can compel foreign nationals to answer questions.

Has the reform website and manifesto changed recently because previously I am sure it said they want the nhs to be under some sort of insurance scheme

Don't know that anyone can be blind to the very poor state the NHS is in now. It would actually be a great idea to move to a European model where people have to pay something but get much better care. Paying for your health insurance should be prioritised, like rent and utilities. If something is 'free' then it is abused, as in the vast numbers of missed appointments, hospitals treating anyone from abroad, people not taking meds as they should, etc etc. Yes of course there would be provision for those who genuinely could not pay, as there is in other countries. I would vote for a party who could implement this, but cannot imagine how it would happen.

The queues are much shorter because the choice of provider drives efficiency and the patient is valued rather than a nuisance. The NHS rationing mechanism is waiting lists and the staff are always going on strike.

This.

It’s working fine for us at the moment.

The other option is we just keep paying more money into the NHS. But in twenty or thirty years time what then?
Theres no point keeping a failing system going because in the end we’ll all lose out .

The NHS will soon just become an emergency service that’s only going to deal with emergencies. Because everyone else will be unaffordable.

Ive noticed something else too.I know of people who’ve died in hospital, yes they had illness and were older but I was still surprised they died.
Twenty years ago they may have survived…

This.

Nigel likes the US model. That should scare the shit out of anyone who isn’t a millionaire, or even a billionaire…which Nigel is, and has all his private insurance lined up already.

he doesn’t give a stuff about people having to chose whether they eat or get insulin, or even get pregnant as a natural birth costs eye watering amounts of money. The USA may have better health outcomes than us now if you’re wealthy, but if you don’t have health insurance coverage at high levels, you can be bankrupted quickly even over none life threatening. Even cost of ambulance makes me feel sick.

Farage is not tlaking to European health care models providers , or even Canada. He just wants to talk to USA health lobbyists, and pharma companies (and I used to work for a us pharma company) . He wants to sell us out. Becuase he’s an investment banker and he can make money.

the NHS was deliberately underfunded to run it into ground and convince people like you it is “broken” and can’t be fixed. Same as everything the Tories ever did about privatisation of our essential services like rail, water, fuel, housing. Underfunded, run them down, everyone says it’s broken, and rolls over to accept privatisation. And where has that got us? Some of the most expensive fuel bills in Europe, and our energy companies being used as prime investment tools in people’s investment portfolio becuase of the profit and dividends they give. Same as our nursing homes and care homes. Or water, they’re investment platforms.

the nhs is not dead to be consigned to the bin. It’s broken and it’s taking too long to be repaired.

look at the stats. The nhs costs way less on bureaucracy than even most European models, £ spending per capita goes further. Yep, over last decade under Tories, we have seen massive decline in health outcomes, going form one of best in world, to below average in wealthiest countries. That’s a result of chronic underfunding and resources being taken away. it’s a choice around taxation, and NI Contributions. We can afford a tax rise or ni rise, much better than we can afford to be charged privately that just hits the worse off and sickest hardest. Agian do a search, we’ve slipped from beibg amoungst world leaders to below average in just 10 years.

it is not a lost cause, we can get back to where we were 10 years ago. Unless everyone falls for the propaganda investment pedlars are pushing.

The Darzi review last year was pretty damning: productivity still below pre-pandemic levels, capital starved for decades, too much activity in the wrong places. Needing 4% real growth p.a to stand still but hasn’t had that for 15 yrs. £13bn backlog just for maintenance. Commonwealth Fund ranks the NHS highly for equity and access but low on outcomes, ie we all get a fairly similar level of poor healthcare.

But even if you are content with that now, the next 20 yrs will be dismal unless something big changes. The number of over-85s will double and the dependency ratio will increase sharply (fewer workers per non-workers).

Bevan saw a major societal challenge and came up with a bold solution that involved wholesale reform to meet the needs of the age. We need similarly large, but different, change now. But all we have these days are ostriches.

If you are a millionaire and you pay in, I dunno, 5K a year in national insurance, and I'm working and pay in the same, it's equal.

Healthcare is for everyone.

I would actually vote for any party who got rid of the NHS or part of it, and replace it with something reliable. It’s absolutely dire atm. Like everything else, too many people using it resulting in something not fit for purpose. Can anyone, hand on heart, say that the NHS is great in its current format?

The NHS is not broken. It has been mismanaged - too adeptly?- but can and should be fixed imo.

Over the last 5 years, my 2nd hand experience of close family members in need of acute care has been so different - firstly urban v rural. In the city, waiting lists are huge, GP receptionists are a law unto themselves and I had to learn to be very proactive and pushy, but the practioners and treatment, when finally made available, were the best. I really feel for those people who do not speak English or who struggle with tech or literacy. Rurally, there is the sheer lack of staffing in ghost hospital buildings. Privatising is not going to help that?

Many practioners now work in dual roles, making the extra bucks privately while still contributing to the system. This makes them less available on the NHS. There is obviously the long-standing underfunding factor.

There is an unhealthily ambiguous overlap between private and state care. MH is most definitely in crisis with the option for queue jumping made very available for those who can afford it. Eg a 2 year wait for therapy for minors unless you can pay £250 a session which you can book that week.

Families who might be able to afford one treatment would not be able to sustain long term care.

I would be very happy to pay extra tax (and I am not a high earner) in order to get free healthcare for all back on its feet. Private healthcare will always be an option but should not be at the expense of an equal system for all. If the system and health care workers were managed and paid properly, fewer practioners would be lured away from it.

@Livelovebehappy

For those who are invested in the cult of the NHS, there are no more likely to denounce the NHS than a devout religious person is to denounce their religion.

The pot banging has warped their minds

The cult? What?

Have you lived in France where the health system works?

That doesn’t quite answer the question.

If you could provide better healthcare for both rich and poor by making the system less equal, would you do so?

You are presenting it as though it were the only option @GeneralPeter

Cult is perhaps hyperbolic. But do you know any other country whose Olympic opening ceremony contained a dancing paean to its healthcare system?

Having lived in many countries, only in the US have I found a similarly strong and widespread conviction that their system could not be improved by learning from other countries.

I’m a bit behind but can you explain how it’s capped at 115 per year and yet some cost more than that?