This post nails it about left wing voters on Mumsnet over the last two days

[ProudAmberTurtle]

It's by an ex-academic on X, about posts on Reddit over the last 48 hours but is equally applicable to Mumsnet, where I can seeing posts stating things like:

"How stupid are Reform voters? Don't they realise they'll get fewer benefits?!"

The irony is of course that it's those posters who need to be educated, not the working class voters they mock because they think they're thick.

Here you go:

Reading through Reddit threads in which leftists/progressives express their bewilderment/confusion/fury at working class English voters for casting their lot in with Reform, one of the things I'm starting to understand is this:

They simply do not understand how a government could help working-class people in any other way besides giving them benefits, handouts, and other free things.

Their entire mental architecture is premised upon the premises that

1. Working class people are poor
2. The only way for them to not be poor is for the state to give them free stuff
3. So left-wing parties need to promise them lots of free stuff

Then, when these working-class voters instead vote for right-of-centre parties who instead promise an economy in which they can build a career, start their own business, make a financial success of themselves and start a family, they're confused.

Because, again, in their mental architecture, what the working class are supposed to want is free benefits from the state.

But what they actually want is a fair shake at making their own way in the world, making money, getting on in life.

And the left simply doesn't understand that what these voters want from the state is an economy in which they can actually do this.

x.com/i/status/2053073719086469193

You are definitely right to flag that, morals interchanged with virtue, sloppy, that is the point you are rightly make.

My point was never that all opinions are morally equivalent, rather that too many ordinary political disagreements get treated as evidence of moral failure rather than differences of opinion.

Quote : " Funny how middle class left wing people calling working class people stupid and racist for over two decades has led to working class people leaving the Labour Party rather than joining it."

The bolded part. Correlation does not imply causation.

I looked up Labour Party membership (graph attached, source labour). Yes Labour are losing members, but I think your cause is not the whole picture, or the major factor.

Look how flat it is up to 2014. Steady state at about 200k. Then a massive shoot up beginning 2014, peaking at near 3x the norm in 2016, then a fairly constant drop. But it is still near double than it's flat steady state pre 2014.

With Occums Razor, I would put that down to the Corbyn effect. And if Burnham wins the byelection, then it's likely we will see a Burnham effect ? And there were changes to how leaders are elected ?. That would play a part too. As it will for any Party membership.

I think Party membership is pretty low in the UK anyway. So while you might have left the party because of policy, it does not mean that is the reason across the board.

I think what is equally important as to why you left the Party, is when and why you joined it. Because going by the graph, statistically you are more likely to have joined because of Corbyn.

I don't think that is me using the "no true Scotsman fallacy", because it is totally possible for people to swing from left to far right. It's a proven fact that many people do go from left to right as they get older.

Deliberately obtuse doesn't even cover it.
Their Rome is burning and they are still busy arguing about the sex of angels.

Is this you shutting down the discussion your end ?

Won't get me arguing about the sex of angels. I am atheist. You would need to prove angels exist first. And good luck with that.

I was forgetting "structurally" obtuse, but I got a reminder

No, you said "Great post" for criticising the centre left MC for calling Reform voters stupid etc

You made zero mention of the torrent of rubbish spouted from the 'right towards the centre left and neither did the post you were so keen to praise.

Even now we have Farage, Musk & others on the right, making or trying to, stir hatred and division... yet the issue is the left calling Reform stupid.

Fwiw i don't think Reform is stupid, Farage Tice and Yusif are very clever, they manipulate voters across a wide range of the population and educational levels into believing things like immigration, non existent 2 tier policing and the EU are at the heart of the UKs problems.

Agree.

And Farage etc are clever. Very clever.

They have created a catch 22. And so far as morals go, what morals do I mean? How about the morals of truth and facts. They are using the "Cult of Personality " playbook. The Mao version.

Followers repeat misinformation that Farage issues. Anyone that tries to explain why it is misinformation... THEY ARE SPEAKING DOWN TO YOU.

Farage speaks in coded dog whistles. They repeat it. Erm, is that not racist or xenophobic ? ...HOW DARE YOU CALL ME RACIST.

Farage hand waves at dodgy data. It is repeated. Anyone shows real data.... YOUR DATA IS FAKE.

Nobody can win against them. The catch 22 comes in again That any refuting evidence presented becomes evidence that YOU ARE AGAINST THEM.

My favourite is the "WAKE UP". Followed by "WOKE IS BAD". It is really difficult to debate against such a contradiction with logic. Because the premise is not logical.

Explain how Farage is using the "cult of personality playbook" from Chairman Mao?

I am all ears... it s gonna be a ride, I can already tell.

Labour put out lines and posters repeat them verbatim.

You first.

What British cultural things can't British do any more ?

@Alexandra2001

I forgot to mention whataboutisms.

But Eastern standard just reminded me.

Ah yes Labour don’t like being mentioned. You just reminded me.

I answered you.
You ignored me for a couple of days.
Then you whined it was too complicated, you even pretended not to understand the quoting system.

But I answered.
Your turn.

@inkognithaanswered that.

Every party does that, posters repeat Badenoch verbatim as well.

Others stick to the Telegraph headlines

Nothing to do with being a leftie, rightie or cenrist.

French revolution was the gist of your answer I recall. I asked you to explain, because I don't know much about that.

The UN convention on human rights I understand, but I did not see relevance in context.

So there you go. The long post on Reform doing it ignores that it’s a feature of politics today.

Labour had some clunkers - even toolmaker was picked up and repeated pre GE.

You are the one who brought the 1949 UN declaration into this... so for the relevance, go ask yourself.

Come on, Alan, elaborate on the "cult of personality playbook" of Mao and Farage
You mentioned it first, now you should back it.

Reform's 'clunkers' do not get as much media attention.

£5m, Clacton house, school days racism etc.

I have done loads in toolrooms. I am not a time served toolmaker, but I know my way about machine tools.

Starmer's old man was a toolmaker I understand. What was the clunker ? Just as a genuine matter of interest ?

Yes they do. With the media and on here it’s picked up daily.

No no. It's only polite that you go first. Unabstract your abstract answer sort of thing. Lower the brow to a level where working class such as myself can understand it.

It's ignored by a lot of the media and by posters on here.

There probably isn’t a day where a post doesn’t mention one of those.

All political parties get lines out, some stick and get repeated. It’s not just a feature of Reform as claimed below.

I already replied Alan, with an extra post to explain it to you.
I tried my best, not my fault if you don't want to understand it.

Post your answer to my question, come on, I did my bit, you do yours.

Or we can save you the cringe of looking again like a fool and conclude that you dish out notions you don't understand or can't prove?