What will life be like under Reform?

[Easipeelerie]

I have accepted the likelihood of the next government being Reform. I don’t think the government after that will necessarily be Reform. But in the 4 Reform years, what do people think life will be like for the different groups in our country? Will we see very immediate changes?

@TopPocketFind
@pointythings
Sending boys on behavioural courses to tackle misogyny. I think the view that teachers should be trained to spot signs of misogyny and send boys on courses to address it is very 1984.
Teachers emphasing slavery and how white people have oppressed black people when most white people in the 17th century were essentially slaves themselves.
Support for multi-culturalism over integration. British values should come first in the UK. Halal meat being served as the only option in schools.
Teaching primary school children about gender identity (I know children who have become confused after these lessons and said they were gay. Maybe because it makes them feel different/gives them a unique identity but then at puberty realised they were straight).

What does 'British values' mean to you?

Sending boys on behavioural courses to tackle misogyny. I think the view that teachers should be trained to spot signs of misogyny and send boys on courses to address it is very 1984.

I disagree. I think that tackling misogyny, porn and the risks posed by male influencers like Andrew Tate should absolutely be part of the sex and relationship education curriculum. I'm on the fence about addressing this to boys only - there's an argument to be made that boys won't be open about how they feel and what they have seen online in the presence of female classmates, but at the very least girls should also learn these lessons in depth. Like it or not, misogyny is a massive problem, with young men being told they are victims just because they now have to handle female equality. Wayne Couzens didn't spring up out of nowhere.

Teachers emphasing slavery and how white people have oppressed black people when most white people in the 17th century were essentially slaves themselves.
How would you like to see the global slave trade taught then? I'm all in favour of the facts, which include that slaves from the African continent were sold into slavery by local people, but ultimately plantation owners didn't have to use slave labour, did they?

Support for multi-culturalism over integration. British values should come first in the UK. Halal meat being served as the only option in schools.
I'm with you on non-stun slaughter (for everyone, so no halal and no kosher either!), but how do you define British values? Do people have to completely erase their own cultural traditions? Do I as an immigrant have to support the England football team or am I allowed to cheer when Holland do well? Where should those lines be drawn?

Teaching primary school children about gender identity (I know children who have become confused after these lessons and said they were gay. Maybe because it makes them feel different/gives them a unique identity but then at puberty realised they were straight).
So you want to pretend to primary age children that gay people don't exist? What about those pupils who have two mums or two dads? I also think talking about gender is essential, not in the 'a man can become a woman' sense but in the 'gender stereotypes are not a good thing, it is fine for everyone to like playing football/playing with dolls'. And hey, let's get into 'there are no such things as girls' and boys' clothes. There are clothes.'

What does the world according to you look like?

Exactly

If by "good Guy" you mean I hate racists and islamaphobes then yep, absolutely

No one on this thread has demonstrated any racism or Islamophobia.

Yet you felt the need to signal your in-group credentials anyway. Are you consciously aware why?

Thanks for highlighting this Strawberry

A Govn petition in favour of banning no stun slaughter was discussed in Parliament this year

Labour are doing NOTHING about it
because Starmer is an absolute disgrace and a complete hypocrite

Countries that have banned non-stun (religious) slaughter due to animal welfare concerns include Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Switzerland, Iceland, Slovenia, Malta, Cyprus, Luxembourg, and New Zealand, with bans also in parts of Belgium (Flanders/Wallonia), while countries like the UK, France, Germany, Canada still allow exemptions for religious (Halal/Kosher) purposes but face ongoing campaigns for full bans.

Write to your MP
In fact every MP!!!

.

To be fair, no UK government has done anything about it. It isn't just Labour, it's all of them. It's cowardice and fear of the religious lobby, and it's unacceptable.

That's a lot of countries! I'd like to understand more about what's possible.

Do you think that it's possible for properly run non-stun abattoirs to be equally humane to secular ones (recognising that you don't think any abattoirs are OK - but also recognising that it's not realistic in the short term to ban meat entirely - so setting the bar at 'no worse')?

What do Muslims and Jews do in countries that have banned non-stun slaughter? My understanding is that Islamic rules do permit stunning before slaughter - with certain conditions - but Jewish rules don't. Do they import all meat? Is this actually worse for Welfare, or does it not matter? Does having to import it reduce the amount of non-stun slaughter, since it doesn't become the default, as it is becoming here - so only people who actively want that seek it out? Or have Muslim and Jewish people in those countries changed to non-ritually slaughtered meat?

Were you quite so outraged during the last 14 years when the Cons never banned non stun slaughter?

All Shechita/Kosher (Jewish) and some Halal (Muslim) slaughter involves non stun slaughter.

I suspect you'd be turning on Labour with claims of antisemitism if they did.

I believe even Reform have said no plans to ban.

From 2021, Steve Baker on proposed quotas ‘It’s really unconservative. It feels almost Stalinist’

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/11/06/60-tory-mps-could-rebel-proposed-halal-kosher-meat-rules/

No I don’t think it’s possible for animals not to suffer

I have no idea what people do in these countries maybe there’s someone more knowledgeable than me on this but both religions can eat stunned animals in certain circumstances

an important exception: if a Muslim faces starvation with no halal food available, they are permitted to eat non-halal food out of necessity, as per Quran 2:173

Jews
can eat non-kosher food, Jewish law requires eating non-kosher food to save a life (Pikuach Nefesh) or in extreme starvation, making it permissible and even obligatory in life-threatening situations, with Chabad.org and The Forward sources noting this principle. Many Jews, especially more liberal or less observant ones, eat some non-kosher items like dairy in restaurants or vegetarian meals, while others stick strictly to kosher, with some viewing it as spiritual nourishment.

Then there’s choices such as vegetarianism, veganism and pescatarianism ….. no one’s going to starve !!!

It’s probably imported though. As the animals are dead when imported I’m assuming it’s neither here no there to the animals in terms of suffering.

Perhaps it’s more expensive to buy though so less is bought. A very small win for animal welfare but still worth it I believe

Yes I was
and I’ve been marching under the banner of animal welfare since 1980.

No I wouldn’t be calling Labour anti semitic. This is an animal welfare issue first and foremost and everyone knows there are alternatives.

I wouldn’t think much or anything of what Reform want and certainly wouldn't consider it a badge of honour that they agree with Labour.

Agree

Chaos and economic collapse as markets crash, followed by collapse of public services. The only person Farage is interested in is himself.

I think no one wants to ban it because they want to respect a cultural norm. Why doesn’t the same respect for culture extend to the English countryside?

Hunting for entertainment is not part of any religion.

I would support a ban on non-stunned slaughter too but it is not done as a hobby.

I feel equal disrespect for both things and I cannot understand why sensible people wouldn't. They both involve needless cruelty to animals.

They should ban no stun slaughter, again barbaric. But remember Jewish have similar beliefs to Muslims when it comes to meat and blood.

They aren’t equal things. Banning trail hunters vis people eating isn’t the same in moral terms. One is a game vs religious freedom. I am
dubious about both. But the moral equivalence is nowhere.

One is a British cultural tradition, which came out of historic practice required for livestock protection. It isn't necessary any more (we have other ways to kill predators) but it's a cultural tradition.

One is a non-British cultural tradition, which came out of historic practice required for safe meat consumption. It isn't necessary any more (we have other ways of ensuring food hygiene) but it's a cultural tradition.

It turns out that in many Muslim countries, Muslims don't practice non-stun slaughter. It's more of a Western Muslim cultural-identity thing. It's more strictly required in Judaism. Non-stun is certainly a tradition, rather than necessity.

Seems pretty morally equivalent to me.

And that's before you even consider that 71% of all sheep and 22% of all chicken slaughtered in the UK are slaughtered using halal practice - with many schools and hopitals serving only halal meat - even though only 6% of the UK is Muslim. and 0.5% are Jewish. So most of the Halal slaughter isn't even wanted for religious reasons: it's just become the norm in the UK. That is pretty weird, actually.

Ultimately I genuinely think that if Reform got elected then they wouldn't be able to implement much of their policies just as the same would happen iIf Labour or the Conservatives won, then not much of their policies would be implemented.

The role of the civil service is such that policies get delayed then watered down then redrawn for exceptions etc etc so that by the end the policy is largely ineffectual.

You only have to look at Reform Councils to see that they come in with grand promises and then find that they can't implement because of this or that regulation or requirement or law.

Sadly whoever gets elected won't change the status quo of a slow managed economic decline.

It doesn't matter for me, hunting with dogs to chase a fox or deer for fun is wrong. I really don't care if it's a tradition because things change with time....like arranged marriage and equality. Just because it's tradition is no reason to keep it.

Killing an animal for food isn't something we should take lightly. Making it as humane as possible has to be a priority. Stunning it seems like a kinder approach to slitting it's throat and letting it bleed to death.....so if a religious doctrine goes against animal welfare rules then that religion should seek to buy it's meat from abroad.

With age and experience I have learned animals have feelings like ours, they feel pain and emotions. I was brought up on a dairy farm and witnessed the grief of a dairy cow being separated from a calf.....it really makes you think. I think the meat industry has become pure evil....what I mean is that it's become a factory process driven by our lust for meat. I certainly think we should be eating meat no more than once a week.

But they aren’t chasing a fox. They are following a scented trail. They are having a day out on horses with friends and neighbours for fun.