Labour Supporters - Do you think it would help if KS was replaced?

[Mrsmunchofmunchington]

I am a life long labour voter. Like many I am incredibly disappointed, in fact I’m devastated by the direction of the current government.

Something needs to change in a pretty radical way or we are opening the door to Deform.

I’m torn between thinking the last thing we need is another revolving door at no 10 but I have lost any confidence that KS is able to lead us out of the mess the tories left us in.

Would it be a good thing to change leaders if this was possible and if so who should it be?

Please do outline the percentage of Farage's time spent abroad in the last year. You may be confusing him with Prince Harry.

He's had to employ private security. If Labour are calling Farage worse than a racist (for policies that Labour themselves have) and that he dabbled with the Hitler Youth, they are inciting violence. Violence that Farage has frequently experienced remember. So it is very unnerving that the Home Office have reduced his security by such a significant amount. I really don't think we want him to come to harm in this country.

Of course they aren't. They have to prioritise their own financial wellbeing and those of their employees.

Agree it’s not a game. All this ramping up of ‘enemy’ rhetoric by Starmer, presumably so his own party don’t get rid of him, has repercussions.

Keir Starmer doesn't seem to realise the effect that his words have on large parts of the population. He lives in his own little bubble where he virtue signals to his party and ignores everyone else. And we all look at him in bemusement wondering how can he not realise.

If anyone should be looking in the mirror and questioning the impact their words have on the safety of others it's Farage, not Starmer. Millions of people in this country are worried about the impact of ramping up of anti-migrant rhetoric and are feeling unsafe in their own communities and they don't have a personal security budget of any size.

If Farage can't handle Starmer being bolder about calling him out on the impact what Reform are doing, then he should have a career rethink.

Obviously should go without saying that language that stokes hate and violence from any side is unacceptable, but if you're Farage then you should bloody well expect to be robustly challenged. The only outrage is that Starmer hasn't been more vocal on this previously.

You ard wrong. Keir Starmer and Labour are worse. They haven't clamped down on the anti Semetic hate marches. All the anti racism rhetoric only goes one way. Anyone criticising their policies is called "far right". And now taking Farage's security. Have you heard what Labour have been saying in their conference? You can't have, looking at your post. Labour have gone mad. And you seem to be saying that Farage deserves it if Labour's words "calling out" whatever that means leads to harm. It's sickening.

The government hasn’t “taken” Farage’s security. His needs have been risk assessed by security professionals who have decided on an appropriate level of security - just as they do with all MPs. If he feels unsafe he has nobody but himself to blame and he can pay for the level of security that makes him feel comfortable. After all he “earned” more than half a million on top of his MP’s salary in the last year.

"If he feels unsafe he has nobody but himself to blame"

So because he has political opinions some (but according to polls, not many) people disagree with, it's his fault that he has been attacked physically many times over the years? Did you also think it was Charlie Kirk's fault he was shot?

Nigel Farage is now a mainstream politician leading in the polls so potentially our next PM. He has opinions that clearly a huge number of people agree with. He feels unsafe. He has been attacked physically many times. There is an increased level of political violence from the left. He should have proper security. He has confirmed that Home Office security is now inadequate and private donors have had to step in. Reducing his security to inadequate at a time of increased personal attacks from Labour can be seen as a political decision. This is not good. And certainly not good for Keir now if something happens to Farage.

You think “not many” people disagree with him? Seriously? And when has he been attacked “many times”? Apart from last year’s milkshake I can’t think of any. I think your judgement is somewhat clouded by your political views.

Nobody wants anyone to be harmed and political violence should be condemned by everyone. The amount of abuse and threats politicians receive is a really worrying and pressing issue, and we know by the awful incidences of violence against MPs, then it can be individuals from any party.

I did listen to Starmer’s speech in full and the message. He said he would ‘fight’ for the ‘decent, tolerant, respectful Britain’ and then listed things like racist graffiti, deporting legal migrants, inciting violence, etc. as being the ‘enemy of renewal’. Much of it has been taken out of context and manipulated, perhaps rather predictably. While there are people raging about this, there are also a lot of people who have been waiting for and urging Starmer to speak more strongly to confront what we see happening in our politics and society. This is less about left vs right, in my opinion - this isn’t a message that would be needed to be made against say Cameron, May or Sunak as the main opposition. This is very much about Farage and the way he conducts his politics.

We know that Farage doesn’t like scrutiny or being held accountable - whether that’s about Brexit, his inflammatory response linked to the riots, his house in Clacton, his taxes, party links to Russia, etc., but he should be held accountable (just like any MP should) and this is only going to increase for him, so it will be interesting to see how that works out for him if he’s actually serious about being PM.

And the fact is that Farage does have a record for dog-whistle racism, e.g. his Breaking Point poster, Reform’s approach to Anas Sarwar. He promised to ‘pick up a rifle’ if Theresa May didn’t deliver Brexit. He platformed a woman who was convicted of and pleaded guilty to inciting racism. Calling for mass-deportations and the removal of legal migrants are policies typically associated with far-right parties. He speaks loudly in the media of protecting women and girls, yet refers to Andrew Tate as an ‘important voice’ for men, stands by an MP with a conviction for violently attacking his girlfriend (which he didn’t disclose) and then not a single Reform MP turns up to parliament to a key debate on VAWG. And people are of course entitled to overlook all of this to support and vote for Reform for whatever reasons they choose, but people - including the PM - are also entitled to call this out.

Milkshake last year
Milkshake 2019
Two projectiles thrown from a construction site at him in Barnsley.

Personal attacks and labelling of him as racist and member if Hitler Youth at Labour's conference together with his increased popularity has made him a high profile target. He needs greater protection now.

Im not a Reform supporter. But I think your judgement is somewhat clouded by your political views. My views have been clouded by the recent assassination of Charlie Kirk. Plenty of nutters out there.

Essentially you're saying if he gets physically attacked that's his own fault for his political views.

That’s exactly the opposite of what I’m saying: Farage shouldn’t be at any risk of harm, it would be absolutely horrendous if he was and it’s also part of a much wider issue with violence towards politicians. What I am saying that is that Starmer’s speech was calling out Farage’s politics for what it is, based on real evidence and it was absolutely not inciting violence towards him to do that. Out of interest, specifically, what it is that you think Starmer has said that has directly increased the risk of violence towards Farage?

I think I've been saying Labour in general. They are making things very personal when they attack Farage. David Lammy said he was a member of the Hitler Youth (after saying he would play the ball not the man), the HS said he was worse than a racist (the HS who is in charge of decisions about his security) Keir Starmer said that Farage's policies were racist and he did not like Britain.

They are clearly trying to get people to hate him.

We should say that there's no place for political violence and leave that sentence as it is, not then say "but" and list various reasons why political violence might be excusable in certain people's eyes.

Politics has always been personal. Essentially Farage has been recognised as the de facto leader of the opposition as a result of his unquenchable lust for publicity. He wanted the attention, he wants to be prime minister and seems (like you) to have completely failed to comprehend that this is the down side.

Far, far worse things have been said about the leaders of almost all the political parties, it goes with the territory. As the old saying goes “If you can’t take the heat, stay out of the kitchen”.

He's been attacked physically several times.

The government are ramping up the personal hate attacks and at the same time reducing his security. This is being questioned by many people including people from other political parties.

There's been an assassination and two assassination attempts made recently of right wing politicians.

I suggest that Farage is well aware of the downside having been in politics for decades (unlike you). But Labour don't need to make it worse and deliberately increase the threat against him.

The lack of moral clarity on this is baffling. But that's the left these days unfortunately. Things have gone very very wrong.

I don’t think I have said ‘but’ - and it’s certainly not what I believe, there’s not justification ever for political violence - I was just explaining the background as to what these accusations of Farage are based on and that they’re not just things Labour have plucked out of thin air to throw at him.

I listened to the interview with Mahmood and Gove, and I think she makes a very convincing argument for her opinions on that and she is absolutely entitled to that opinion (and others can disagree). Lammy said he’d focus on the ‘ball not the player’ and let the public decide, but did then refer to him flirting with HY (which has been reported by former staff/peers at his school and has been out in the media/public domain for a very long time), but I agree that he shouldn’t have said that, as it is speculation and allegations rather than fact.

And as to it being personal, I think it’s because Farage is a basically a one-man figurehead at whichever movement he’s part of - whether that’s UKIP, Brexit Party or Reform; they have a profile because of him and he is the epicentre (and sometimes even the owner!) of all that they are and all that they represent.

The Hitler Youth slur was made by one teacher, never corroborated and was denied by Farage. His biographer Michael Crick (no supporter of Farage and worked for Channel 4) has admitted that and has said that Lammy was reckless and Farage is not a racist. If we are going to slag someone off best to say things that are definitely true.

Israel on the other hand are blaming Keir Starmer for "toxic anti semitism" in the UK.

He's been attacked physically several times.

Four times according to you - twice with a milkshake, a bit like Prescott getting egged, the other twice (if it happened) didn’t seem to register with the media. I suggest you stop dramatising with nonsense about “hate attacks” and contextualise this. Johnson made such an appalling accusation against Starmer that one of his advisors resigned in protest, there was no talk about “hate attacks” then, was there?

There's no point arguing with ideologues. If you cannot see things clearly we can leave it there.

Absolutely. I couldn’t have put it better.

I'm arguing about the potential for someone being injured or killed (from a party I dont support) and you are making political points relating to past politics from a different age.

I'm not the ideologue here. But I hope you are right.

They are desperate. Reform will win the next election and Farage will be PM. I would invite anyone who refuses to consider this could be possible because only racists/thickos will vote Reform, to go to X and look at the amount of likes and interactions Farage gets in comparison to Starmer, in particular today’s comments on the dreadful Synagogue attack. Some like to sneer at X as Right Wing and not to be trusted but it is where news breaks and wider political discussion is taking place every minute of the day, and it is just silly to say it is not important or can be ignored. I don’t believe getting rid of Starmer will help, Labour’s goose is cooked. I voted Labour all my life, campaigned for them, know hundreds of Labour voters who almost all say they could never vote for them again. Interesting but very scary times we are living in.

As I am currently non-aligned with any political party, and in view of the shocking attack on the Manchester synagogue today, on Yom Kippur FFS, my only point is that the sooner we take race and religion out of politics the better. The polarisation is driving extremist factional hatreds. Which runs counter to every gradual step towards tolerance that was painfully achieved during the 20th century.

Spot on. The most sensible post on the thread.