Would you support mandatory identity cards in the UK?

[Dbank]

Non-mandatory cards have been attempted multiple times and failed to be adopted, do you think now is the time to make them mandatory?

Yes, the last time I remember this being properly discussed was in the 90's and it felt like a lot of men decided it would be against their rights and privacy concerns. Now we are very used to giving data away freely I think attitudes have changed. A lot of the men who were anti are now the Farage Followers who hate immigration and would rather be part of the UK Club and have a card to prove it I suspect.

On a more societal level it w/could help greatly with computerised healthcare and social cohesion on services. As long as we put the data in correctly, as ever, and don't outsource all the data to an American firm like we did with the post office...

You raise an interesting point, I used to believe mandatory cards would be an imposition of the state, i.e. the state is answerable to the people, not the other way round.

However, for a host of reasons, including illegal immigration and fraudulent misrepresentation. I think it's time to make them mandatory.

You would be expected to be able to prove who you are more often, for example you're selling a car, or involved in an accident, evading a train fare etc.

Currently we have a pantomime of people lying and evading justice, by saying "I don't have any id on me".

I still see it as an imposition, but an acceptable one.

Implementation would be key, and a technical, political and social minefield, which is why it's likely to be avoided as long as possible.

(Tangent Warning!)
Not sure about your reference to the Post office, Horizon was originally developed by ICL (Established by the Labour government in 1968), which was later bought in 1998 by the Japanese company Fujitsu, which had been listed on the UK stock exchange in 1981) More here!

@Dbank sorry, I mean to separate the two - we give data to USA on most websites freely through Google etc already but I meant to add a separate proviso of not outsourcing the data to another Country via a company, as happened with Horizon. We need to create the database in UK and ensure the data is securely held. The buck stops with us.

Well, the Online Safety Act is already outsourcing any ID data obtained to a third party company, YOTI. I would not be at all surprised to find a Digital ID card's data similarly outsourced. It'll only be a matter of time before that data is leaked/hacked etc and ends up on the Dark Web. Anyone who thinks our data will be safe is frankly deceiving themselves.

www.yoti.com/blog/digital-id-online-safety-act-effective-private-reusable/

Yes, well, we won't be in a worse position than we currently are, as you say. If it's all collated information we can instead use that to benefit the systems and structures we already have in place - I can see it being useful for Probation and NHS, for example.

Nope. Nope. Nope.

Given this country's track record with big IT projects: hugely expensive Pingdemic app to make one person extremely rich, postmasters being sent to jail, all because "computer says no..."

They won't even bother with the "card" - it will be digital ID. Wasn't that knight in shining armour Sir Farage who's going to save us from the immigrants touting a "Britcard" or something, so that if you're in a small boat, you can wave it, to avoid being mistaken for somebody trying to sneak in?

We will be coaxed into accepting it. It will be sold as a "convenience" - like Alexa and similar devices so you can pay to be spied on in your home, like the NHS app so you can get "pinged" more easily, like a smart meter so electricity can be rationed more easily (mark my words), and like the vaxpass, so that you can just wave it to show that you complied with the state control. It would begin with being "voluntary", but with the usual creeping authoritarianism, it would become compulsory.

And I am extremely wary of Alexa-like devices, because here is a scenario I do foresee: Alexa-like devices might become compulsory as the only way to access the internet (which by then will be essential to do anything at all, such as food shopping), which will speak government propaganda directly into your home, which cannot be silenced. The "emergency alerts" are a step in this direction. George Orwell foresaw this with telescreens.

I'm sure Tony Blair said in 1997 "I want every household to have the internet". He wasn't being altruistic. He foresaw something.

Sorry, I been busy the last few days. Yes, it does prevent anyone changing their social economic level.

I've got an idea for how this moneymaking scheme can go away again.

Asylum seekers receive an ID card, an ARC, issued by the Home Office and produced by Thales International on behalf of the DVLA on behalf of the Home Office. Thales' major shareholders are Dassault and the French Government (although I'd be very interested to know who else has substantial holdings in it).

Tell the people clamouring for one that they're going to have registration cards just like Asylum seekers and it's going to be produced by the French Government and a French oligarch, then it'll be a condition of their receiving GP treatment, driving, opening bank accounts, accessing the internet and voting that the data is shared with the French government.

The appeal will soon wear off.

However if you said it would save ££ in benefits and welfare for single parents because we might be able to cut out cash in hand/freelance/non paying fathers... It would boost the tax coming in and help us with fraud.
I don't think anyone has safe data any more. In my opinion you may as well admit that and use it for things it can actually help with rather than pretending some of us have some magic veil.

So they wouldn't have privacy over their money - no getting cash discounts from builders/doing a bit of cleaning/washing cars, the French government would be monitoring their spending, they'd have to pay tax on everything, could be caught and made to pay CMS for their children when they don't want to, cash would be abolished or none of this would work, putting market traders out of business, being restricted to buying from large shops like ASDA/Sainsbury's/Waitrose/Morrisons/Tesco and no buying weed or getting stuff via a mate...and they'd need to get a photo, get somebody of good standing in the community to recommend their application, confirm their address with evidence of bank account/birth certificate/name on bills, make payment and wait for the card to be issued - it's not really selling to them, is it?

I suppose at least they'd have handy ID for registering with PornHub.

If by privacy over their money you mean fraud and tax evasion on earnings that mean kids don't get any child support, yes. All the dark cash in hand cheating that kills the economy and supports illegal activities like human trafficking and the drugs trade.

Men have all got VPNs for porn anyway.

Oh and check this out - apparently we'll need to give fingerprints and facial recognition when entering the EU - so biometric checks!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8deq8qm504o

quote: "For most tourists, digital records will only be held for three years and a day - but for those who overstay the 90-day limit without a visa will have their data held for five years."

3 years minumum?? So your data will be stored somewhere for all that time!

Yes, we were the only country holding that up. They can go ahead with it now we left! Ah, Brexit. The gift that keeps on giving.

Is the thinking that your class always impact you? Can your children be a different class?

Perhaps we have different priorities.

I don't ask: Does it work efficiently?
I ask: Does it impinge on privacy and it is likely to result in more surveillance?

I agree that surveillance in China is horrifying. I've read multiple articles on this - including how China uses it to hem in the Uyghur minority.
I have an idle fantasy of arriving in China and telling them I don't have a cell phone.

This. No way. We need to reduce surveillance and monitoring, not increase it.

Many elderly people still hold onto a driver's licence as no other useful ID. Many haven't had a passport for sometime, if ever. It's mad that there are care homes with people in with no valid way to prove who they are...or, in some cases, they can prove they can drive...but absolutely shouldn't. It is also usually something that doesn't need to be replaced often and is easy to carry around. In other countries it is used to access healthcare and other services as well. Not sure the UK driver's licence has an address associated with it 🤔

I can imagine you are only asked to produce it on demand for reasons of ID, not just stopped in the street for no reason. I.e. if someone is suspected of a crime then they can't give a fake name/address to the police as they would be required to have the ID (sounds like a good thing). My child got asked for their ID recently as produced a child's ticket on a train to the inspector, and fair enough, they could pass as older and be sneaking a kid's ticket. The ID proves they are still a kid, no one cares, conductor continues. The only downside is that I'd like to take my child to shows or concerts where the artist would be fine to see, but they are not allowed to attend due to licensing laws....and, in a reverse of the train scenario, they could be carded easily. But, well, that is us wanting to do something that is not allowed, and being stopped by the ID card....which I cannot argue with

Russia's first gotta get through a fair few countries on the way that all have ID, so they'd be plenty of time for someone to pull the plug/crash the system....of course, I think there was national ID in the UK during WW2 🤔

My mother had neither because her birth record was destroyed in a bombing raid that hit the records office. She complained about being quizzed whether she was an illegal immigrant because her original NHS number was wrong for her age and her birth certificate wasn't issued in 1937.

She definitely wouldn't have been able to get through a Windrush-style demand for proof of being born and educated here.

Yes, I think it is a good idea. The majority of posters on this thread agree with me. As do the majority of people on the YouGov research data website.
It will happen. The point about Democracy is the majority of people get to decide and the majority of people want ID cards

No Internet in the years of WW2 though! That's the huge difference, the online storage of data.

Not really. A paper storage of data was probably just as vulnerable to theft and abuse. Maybe in a different volume, but still would have had problems.

The UK licence certainly does have an address associated with it, and it is an offence to not change that address with the DVLA every time you move.