How far has the U.S moved towards fascism? Poll

[Newbutoldfather]

I think this would be an interesting poll to do.

I have discussions with both right wing friends and left wing friends and, as you would imagine, I get very polarised views. On the one hand, Trump is seen as a refreshing antidote to the casual left wing dominance of society and groupthink. On the other, we are moving step by step towards the third Reich or Putin’s Russia.

Personally, I think Trump has some dangerously authoritarian tendencies but, on the whole, democracy is holding up well.

It would be interesting to hear why people have voted the way they have, especially the 1s and 5s.

I struggle to see the U.S as a fully functioning democracy with so many executive orders and an attempt to weaken the court system.

But, equally, you can still protest, take the government to court, the senate can stop Trump if it is united- so, to me, it is a long long way from a fascist state.

They're not moving in a happy direction.....

you can still protest

can you though?

They have more freedom than we appear to have these days.

Starmer runs little by his MPs, and I wonder about his cabinet. Gibraltar was a unilateral decision ditto Chagos islands.

Now he may of course think that the majority of elected MPS are unable to grasp the nuances of international politics. Therefore, they'd only be a nuisance if they knew. So like mushrooms keep them in the dark.

Trump has effectively prevented any law firm for acting for anyone who wants to challenge him. Seems pretty fascist to me.

Well except two friends working in the legal system over there say, only the lawyers win. The system is abused. Milk the client dry. I don't think my solicitor friends in the UK are that cynical.

The US has never had a casual left wing dominance of society. It has a 2 party system. One party is Right, the other party is further to the Right.

Trump is stretching US constitution and the law to breaking point using EOs and declaring National Emergencies..

He's cracking down on Freedom of Speech. He's militarised ICE.

People are being snatched off the streets and imprisoned without due process.
He's sending them to foreign prison and is talking about sending them to Gitmo.
He's put the National guard out and has mobilised the army to go onto American streets.
He has called for the arrest of his democratically elected political opponents.

And we're only 5 months into his presidency. Not only does Trump have authoritarian ideas, he's enacting them.

Now of course some Americans are cheering him on. "Owning the libs" is more important to them than freedom and democracy, but many Americans are frightened. Even Trump voters don't like what he's doing and becoming more and more wary.

I didn't vote in your poll @Newbutoldfather because none of the answers reflect my thoughts.

This comment is unrelated to what I said.

My New York friends have relocated to new Hampshire. They're loyal democrats but in the last few years have felt more and more unsafe, stopped shopping, dining out there. The streets have been taken over by a dangerous underclass.

Now they live in a town population 60k with a lake mom and pop shops lots of festivals. Small school primary and secondary. They run their business remotely flying in for meetings. We tease them gently about their republic governor.

At the end of the day, they feel safe, their children and grandchildren decamped to Nova Scotia a couple of years ago, they feel safe.

It's blooming cold there in the winter though.

@TooBigForMyBoots ,

I thought I put everything on the table from full democracy to full fascism.

You only get 32 characters, so nuance is hard!

But I think the vote so far is interesting and the distribution and mean tell us a little bit about how people are thinking.

I think that a lot of people are keen to plot the road to Nazism/fascism and see every tiny infraction as a dot to be filled in. On the other hand, others dismiss some of his actions too easily.

And it is not about what he wants, but how well the system is constraining him. For instance, many noted the immigrant wrongly sent to El Salvador, but the courts did succeed in getting him brought back, which few have mentioned.

My issue with the poll options is that 2 answers are Trump based and 3 are about US democracy.

The US is a democratic country however no one knows how democratic it will be when the next round of scheduled elections are held.

Trump totally has Authoritarian tendencies as anyone who knows him or has worked with him will attest, it's his way or the highway.

IMO, Trump would love to have the sort of power Putin has, but he doesn't. He's Putin's Puppet. Putin funded Trump support in the run up to the election. He didn't do this because he wanted the best for the American people. He didn't do it for the lolz. He did it to destroy America and weaken NATO and Trump isn't disappointing him. He's the most powerful Useful Idiot on the planet.

The man returned from El Salvador is good news but it is a tiny chink of light in the spreading darkness. Court cases take time and money. Trump puts out EOs in seconds.

Here's what the Trump administration is doing to uphold free speech and democracy in America. It's not a good sign when Homeland Security is arresting elected representatives for saying stuff they don't like.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5ygn48djrko

I don’t care. I don’t live there. My DH constantly goes on about Trump and it’s really not healthy.

@TooBigForMyBoots ,

I can see what you are saying, but the question is about U.S democracy and it is meant to put it on a spectrum between 1, fully democratic and 5, fully fascist.

In full with no character limits:

1/ The U.S is a fully functioning democracy.

2/ Although Trump has authoritarian tendencies, the U.S remains mainly democratic.

3/ The U.S is half way to fascism.

4/ Although there are still some checks and balances, in reality the U.S is mainly fascist.

5/ The U.S has become a fascist state.

I get that @Newbutoldfather . For me it was 2 different questions IYSWIM. I wasn't having a go.

So my answer is Trump is turning the US into a facist state. He's not there yet but he's made amazing progress towards it in the 5 months since he became president. God knows what it will be like in 4 years.

Like many people I have family and friends in the US. They are scared and I am worried for them.

So I voted for option 2 so I could see the results. It's interesting that more than 80% think America is more facist under Trump.

What did you vote for @Newbutoldfather?

I don't think that was clear from the options that you set out at all, and I don't think that's how people will have voted.

I agree with the comments by @TooBigForMyBoots regarding some of the options being about Trump and some being about US democracy in general. For me, the closest option to number 5 was number 2 - not quite fascism yet but definitely leaning that way.

I'm not sure I quite agree with any of the options, I'd describe it as 'moving pretty inevitably towards complete fascism'.

Many people will be able to carry on living pretty normal lives under it - providing they are white and male. And while America has never been the haven it believes itself to be for PoC, Muslims, Latinx, LGBTQ+ and women, it's totally getting worse.

It seems likely protest will get seriously restricted and/or the American military will use lethal force on protestors.

The White House is trying to keep critical press out of their press events and Trump apparently ensured only supportive (and 'not fat') troops were picked at his address to the military 250th anniversary event the other week which completely broke military rules about non partisanship on multiple levels.

People are being kidnapped without due process and taken to an external torture prison.

Anyone can 'shop' an 'illegal immigrant' and that person will be in a world of trouble even if they are a citizen and may be lucky to get any kind of due process to prove that.

Sounds pretty fascist to me and if it's not fully there it's only because some things haven't been encoded as law yet.

@TooBigForMyBoots ,

I voted for option 2.

I think the U.S is still fundamentally democratic, but the ‘emergency’ executive orders, ignoring of some court orders and some ‘capture’ of the instruments of state have moved it away from pure democracy.

But I still think it is miles away from truly autocratic states like Russia, Iran or North Korea.

But my view could change over time.

For me, the closest option to number 5 was number 2 - not quite fascism yet but definitely leaning that way.

Me too.

But I still think it is miles away from truly autocratic states like Russia, Iran or North Korea.

I would hope so! None of the countries you mention have any real democratic history. The US was founded on democracy. The damage done by Trump in such a short period of time is truly alarming.

@TooBigForMyBoots ,

But too many are saying the U.S is already fascist, both my friend and the poll here.

And I have clarified the numbers and words in a later post. As I explained, the character limit is 32 to describe each option. I think the intent is clear.

It is there. I live here. Insane. ICE agents following brown folks. Samoan kid arrested for being Samoan. American Samoans are CITIZENS! Absolutely nuts. Latin looking people carrying there passports. It may not matter.

I wouldn't agree with too many. For some the level of facist state has already been reached. Freedom of speech and the press are already being quashed. People on the street are already being bundled into cars and taken away by the government. Political opponents are already being threatened and arrested. The military has already been mobilised onto the streets of America.

That, to them is facism now. I don't think their view is an unreasonable one.🤷‍♀️. Do you?

As I said I voted option 2, however I think it's closer to option 5 than it is to option 1 wrt to the state of American democracy. I've no doubt some, like your friend and those who went for option 1 think I'm an over optimistic eejit.

They may be right.😬

I've no doubt some, like your friend and those who went for option 1 think I'm an over optimistic eejit.

Doh, I mean option 5.🤦‍♀️😳

Apologies for any confusion.