How far has the U.S moved towards fascism? Poll

[Newbutoldfather]

I think this would be an interesting poll to do.

I have discussions with both right wing friends and left wing friends and, as you would imagine, I get very polarised views. On the one hand, Trump is seen as a refreshing antidote to the casual left wing dominance of society and groupthink. On the other, we are moving step by step towards the third Reich or Putin’s Russia.

Personally, I think Trump has some dangerously authoritarian tendencies but, on the whole, democracy is holding up well.

It is most definitely not miles away. Trump is going to have a huge celebration of the military soon, on his birthday. That is right out of the fascist handbook. Criticism is seen as treason. The leader must be obeyed. Military used for domestic law enforcement. People imprisoned without due process. People imprisoned in foreign countries for life without so much as a hearing before beng sent there. Heaven help us.

I think there are a lot of people who dismiss it because they just don't want to believe it could ever happen in a democratic country. Sadly, we may be watching the transformation unfold right in front of us. It is simultaneously fascinating and terrifying.

They're boiling the frog while we look on. Soon they may be boiling one here as well.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves ,

I sometimes think that. On the other hand, I doubt people know or remember countries that moved a little towards fascism but then returned to democracy (I certainly don’t).

I also think that, although Trump has authoritarian tendencies, he doesn’t want to become a full dictator and wants to be remembered well in history.

So far, as I kind of expected, the poll represents something of a bimodal distribution, with both the mean and median being the U.S is a semi-dictatorship.

I guess only time will tell.

I think you're right that Trump wants to be remembered well in history, but I don't see that as a protective factor, personally, because I think he would interpret being "remembered well" very differently from how most people would. I'm sure that he would be more than happy to be remembered as the all-powerful king-like leader who "made America great again" (sic). He would probably think he was doing the US a favour by establishing himself as a dictator. He is not a rational man.

To add, I genuinely didn't realise initially that your vote was supposed to be a 5 point scale because of the descriptors that you used - it really didn't look that way to me. The options seemed to me to be pretty random, and I considered option 2 to be the next step down from Option 5. So I don't think you can read much into your poll tbh.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves ,

’- it really didn't look that way to me. The options seemed to me to be pretty random, and I considered option 2 to be the next step down from Option 5. So I don't think you can read much into your poll tbh.’

It isn’t a fully scientific poll-obviously!

But, OTOH, I think most who read the post and descriptors (admittedly not ideal), can realise the intent of a one to five grading on a spectrum, especially if they read the whole thread, where I explained it (it is quite a short thread!).

I am really surprised that 25% of people would describe the U.S as a fascist state!

I would have picked 'trump has some authoritarian ideas' up until yesterday when i saw a senator, ibe if the highest station of elected representatives being forced to the ground, cuffed, and taken away for daring to ask a question, and Noem then denying all knowledge if it even happening.

Im more worried about that than the iran strikes, the airline crash or the war in Gaza in terms of what it could signify for world stability.

How did 11% of people say Trump is fully democratic?! He tried very hard to overturn an election result which offended his ego.

A lot of them would have voted before reading your explanation, though (I did!), and it's evident from other threads that lots of people don't realise they can change their vote at any time. Plus in any case, some people might not want to change their vote because the options still don't make sense to them. I want to pick number 4 on a 5-point scale but I can't pick your option 4 because that doesn't sound like a comment on the current state of the US at all, but more like a comment that democracy never really works that well in any case (ergo the current state of the US doesn't really matter).

At least one other poster has already confirmed that they saw option 2 as being the next step down from option 5, and another has indicated that there weren't any options to reflect their view that the US is headed towards becoming a fascist state.

So I think the poll is fundamentally flawed and doesn't tell us anything about how concerned people actually are about the direction in which the US is headed. It was a good idea and would have been interesting to see the results...it just failed in the execution, sadly, because the options that obviously made sense to you when you created it didn't necessarily mean the same thing to the people who were voting!

I would say anything beyond 'semi-democratic' is hyperbole at the moment.

But it's fast headed into authoritarianism and sending the Marines into LA over protests is clearly authoritarian. Masked 'agents', lawyers quelled, massive corruption.

In my opinion that's what will happen, a total breakdown of democracy. Because most Americans no longer believe that their elections are fair. So it's a dying democracy.

But we can't say it's all over yet. The mid-term elections might happen. Americans might or might not accept the results. Courts might or might not find a way to enforce anti-Trump rulings. California may or may not be occupied by the military. One senator was already forced to the ground and handcuffed, the governor is in an open war of words with Trump, and the words 'arrest the governor' are out there.

This is what you should have put in your poll. It's much clearer. I initially voted "Trump has authoritarian ideas" but didn't realise you meant that in the context of the US remaining mostly democratic. The poll doesn't come across as a sliding scale.

Exactly.

@SisterMargaretta ,

‘This is what you should have put in your poll. It's much clearer.’

Well, yes, I should have checked my work more carefully! Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

But I read the criticism and amended it. And I still think that the vast majority (this doesn’t mean everyone) got the idea.

I think the evidence that he passes very little through Congress is an indication that he has little respect for democracy. Rule by executive order is by default non democratic. Executive orders are meant to be isolated and in times of crisis....not publicity stunts and rule by pen.

The problem is the US is a two party system with both options delivering poor candidates and the same national and international policies under slightly different guises until the electorate get fed up and vote in the other bad bunch again. It's no better in the UK where we also in effect have a two party system.

You have no way of knowing, though, whether the vast majority got the idea.

You'd have to do another poll to find out!

I think the fact you need to be a multimillionaire or friend of multimillionaires to become President is anti-democratic; the way the judges are political appointees is anti-democratic - there's no real scrutiny of the legislature or the executive arms of Government. I don't like the college system either: it seems crazy to me that the President ia effectively chosen by a handful of states. I don't think there is enough media scrutiny of politicians in the US or the UK.

It's a scandal that someone with such a murky personal and business background is what a whole nation thinks is best placed to lead such a powerful country.

@28Fluctuations ,

‘The mid-term elections might happen’

Do you really believe that they are in doubt?!

Obviously, if they don’t, then I will go from 2-4 on my scale, but I just can’t see any reason they wouldn’t happen.

If the elections don't go ahead, that's a solid 5.

It's interesting to observe Europe heading further right, much more strongly than the USA. The media show the USA riots openly. Whereas those same media are sat on re reporting riot issues in France, Germany, Netherlands.

Hungary, Poland, Italy are playing hardball with the EU things are becoming unglued.

Not really because they had the choice of Bernie Sanders and we had Corbyn....both rejected. Both offered fundamentally a different approach.

People voted for Trump, an extreme candidate and we voted for Farage....both candidates have zero interest in the average person.....but they convinced millions to vote.

Democracy will only work if people are educated and given the facts not social media lies.

Poland will be the strongest military power in Europe soon followed by the Ukraine. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with either.

The far right has a habit of surprising us, Hitler being an example.

I watched a documentary on Finland. Interesting that they have compulsory national service and take it very seriously. We watched some of their training, snipers were so young. They're very proud of their national willingness to stand by their country.

It's not Trump so much as a dysfunctional election system. Add in widespread voter suppression. The Republican candidate has won the popular vote twice since 1992. Not wildly popular , yet they took the White House four times. The Democrats don't inspire confidence that they'd do much better for the average American. I have noticed quite a few US people calling for PR or ' ranked voting' as they call it. Regardless of who wins next time I imagine Congress will be looking at ways to curb the powers of any future president? Having some infantile megalomaniac running amok was never envisaged in the Constitution surely.