Starmer Must Go

[BisiBodi]

I made a lengthy post yesterday (on this thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/politics/5333405-changes-to-immigration-rules-announced-by-starmer?page=2 @ 17:43 if you want to read it) regarding the horrendous "island of strangers" speech by Starmer
Today, Kier Starmer has decided to say that immigration has done "incalculable damage" to the country. My despair and fury over this, and the general direction of labour, warrants its own thread.

Starmer claimed in writing that immigrants have put too much pressure on housing and public services (they don't, and he previously said they don't). He added that the immigration system is “almost designed to permit abuse” and that it risks “pulling the country apart”. He said that he wanted to close a “squalid chapter” in our country’s history (of too much immigration in the last few years), and then he seemed to quote the Rivers of Blood speech and said that without significantly reducing immigration the UK risks becoming “an island of strangers".

He's doing this because he's proposing new laws to make immigration harder and bring net migration down (except they definitely won't). Stuff like increasing it to 10 years before you can apply for indefinite leave to remain (10 years!!), introducing English language tests (in a post that suggests Welsh doesn't exist), reducing social care visas (the system would collapse in a day), being tougher on overseas students and reducing the time they can stay after graduation (if you reduce their numbers at all then Universities will be bankrupt immediately), new ID cards, reduce (oh sorry, "clarify") the amount ECHR article 8 can be used to justify people staying on human rights grounds, etc.

When someone pointed out that high migration helps economies and low hurts them, and that this is true in the EU right now and all over the world, Starmer didn't think so. He said that immigration has been high in the UK but the economy has been stagnant, so there can't be any link. Yes Keir, but the economy was stagnant during A PANDEMIC AND ENERGY CRISIS AND COST OF LIVING CRISIS AND EXPENSIVE NEW WARS AND GLOBAL MARKET TRUMP TURMOIL. If the immigrants hadn't kept us level, your "stagnant" economy would have plummeted like a rock. You cannot possibly be presenting that as X=Y in a total vacuum.

This kind of xenophobia doesn't need explaining, but it's worth saying why it won't work and will lose Labour a lot of votes:

• Conservative and Reform voters do NOT change their vote to Labour ever, so this pandering is worthless. But Labour can lose votes to the Greens and LDs at a high rate. Nearly ALL the Reform votes come from former Conservatives.
• Public concern about immigration is low and goes up and down exactly with how much the press is currently going on about it (see the graph) so is not worth alienating your voter base about
• And it is alienating voters, because you've heard this kind of rhetoric before but it was from the actual NF and BNP
• The Mail's headline today was still attacking Labour because it is impossible to ever go far enough for them, or for Reform voters. Nothing is ever enough.

So, Labour saying "Reform are right actually" won't bring a single voter over to Labour, but it sure will lose you a few. Or, er, a lot. People are resigning their Labour membership and sounding furious. I haven't seen a single event trigger this much outrage from the public (and Labour MPs) in quite a while. Starmer has hugely damaged himself. Germany's far-right AfD are praising him, that's the level it's at.

I already left for the Greens, but today has me going even further. I think it's now worth the potential chaos to get rid of Starmer's version of Labour. In a timely article today, Nesrine Malik called our current elections "hostage politics". You MUST vote Labour or the Tories will get in. Now you MUST vote Labour or Reform will get in.

I don't respond well to threats. Never have. I tend to escalate. And I'm bored of their crap: more cuts, keeping first-past-the-post even though Labour members want PR, refusing to talk about rejoining the EU even though Labour members (and the majority of the country) want full rejoin, this xenophobic shit which goes against everything Starmer said about immigration when he was running for leader (but then he's broken every pledge from that time), the anti-trans bollocks, coming for the disabled PIP and saying all benefits are too high and that people are taking advantage of handouts and all the rest.

Fuck these guys. There's pragmatic politics where you compromise, and then there's this literal far-right shit that means you personally HAVE to be comfortable with saying it in public. It's about the soul of the PM and the party. Today is way over the line of sensible cross-party anything.

And I'm done with hostage politics. What, so we keep Labour in for 8 more years of... this? Of the same or more cuts? I'm rapidly approaching the point where smashing this Labour party so that they never try to be centre- / far-right again would do more good than the short-term harm.

Voters didn't show unwavering support for Labour at the last election, they showed that they will be extremely flexible and vote for whoever can win in their area. If Labour become unpopular in the polls, that will be someone else and not them. Labour's lead is incredibly fragile and changeable and today's performance is EXACTLY how they lose it and deserve to lose it. Yes, some young men went to Reform before the election... and twice as many young women went to the Greens. Labour's share fell 21% in 18-24 year olds. You cannot gain a single Reform vote by going right. It will never be far-right enough.
Saying that Reform are correct and using their rhetoric in speeches and changing your policies to theirs is NOT how you defeat them, or run a country.

Replace Starmer, quickly. At the very least.

And so what is the purpose of this thread, other than to vent into an online echo-chamber? I think it's a request to a call to action. It's a call out to everyone who currently resides - whether you like it or not - in a Labour controlled constituency and has a labour MP.

You can easily find out the details, together with links to their speeches and/or voting records, from service such as They Work For You.
Check the details of your MP, and especially their stance on immigration and other matters important to you, then email them.

Ah, you know I have a point, but can't admit it.

But this is ok is it? @PandoraSocks

Ah no. Really not. Labour posters have just been relying on jibes and emojis so long you can’t see it anymore.

Your threads are all called "Labour isn't working" so nothing wrong with calling you "the Labour isn't working gang".

If @BIossomtoes had called you the Badenoch/Farage fan club, it would have been fine to respond in kind. But she didn't.

🤔🤭😘

I think it’s part of the problem for Labour generally and Starmer isn’t immune. This idea that sarcasm and belittling is ok and isn’t even seen.

He’s not winning people round either.

so it’s ok if Russia “takes back” Ukraine?

you’re talking nonsense. Particularly about Britain which as an island has a v v v v v long history of being a self-standing “nation”. Maybe you’re from a continent where ok it’s a bit different

Yeh this’ll work. Although I’ve seen reactions to topics where you think mn is too harsh so if you want it to be that way, then fine.

Just on the Ukraine point, I have long since thought that if we had not had a Brexit (and the social media influences from bad actors that likely did play some part), then Europe may not have been at war right now.
It is our duty to do a EU deal. Obviously we were all also just asleep at the wheel in 2014 when Russia invaded Crimea.
If we want to talk about principles, at least both main parties support the Ukraine fully and that is not going to go away, I do not think.
So FFS whether Tory or Labour does not matter to me. It is more about refunding the underlying value system that we stand for, which is freedom, hard work, choice, doing your bit for society etc and pulling together when it matters. If we can do it when it comes to Ukraine, we should be able to do it back home as well.

On the conservative side of the argument, would "you" welcome a closer better trade deal with the EU, inc a youth mobility scheme, similar to the one we have with Australia.

Obviously the devil is in the detail but in principal.

Your thread title is Starmer! Are you suggesting that the pp is not a huge Starmer fan?

The post from blossom came at me because I dared to accuse Starmer of belittling women. Blossom responded exactly how Starmer does when challenged by a woman!

You are welcome to rejoin us on the labour isn't working thread whenever you like btw

On Ukraine, Brexit assisted Putin no doubt, but he did invade Crimea long before Brexit.

My own opinion is Russia will eventually control all or most of Ukraine, even with a so called peace deal, its just a matter of time.
Trump is not ever going to arm Ukraine to the level required and Europe, inc the UK lacks the will or finances to do it either.

Russia has infinite resources and no shortage of countries willing to buy their raw materials.

It was a jibe of course. On one hand keep going as clearly what worked previously is now failing for Labour, people find the belittling and rudeness off putting and annoying, see polls. But also if it’s dished out to start with what do those posters expect in return

I am personally in favour of the youth mobility scheme, but many others see it as a first step towards free movement. I would also welcome a better trade deal personally, but the devil is in the detail.

If you ever read the thread you will see that several of us are not at all happy with Starmer and Labour. BIossomtoes is one of them.

“Russia has infinite resources and no shortage of countries willing to buy their raw materials.”

Russia’s weak point though is the sacrificing of young men that they have historically been all too willing to do. With social media and them not actually being able to control thought completely, that is the weak point that Western powers should be focussing on. They also have a falling birthrate and will have huge demographic challenges if they string this war out much longer.

That still didn’t stop the post below. So it was returned.

I was accused yesterday of being quite happy to wade in on threads not aimed at you. That really doesn’t give the impression of welcome. I think it would be really rude anyway, a bit like posting pictures of cake on a weight loss thread. Don’t you think this is all a bit childish? It just amused me that three of you all arrived within seconds of each other.

The reason the long running series of threads is entitled Starmer is because he’s PM, they were entitled Sunak before the GE. I think the term “fan” is derogatory and trivialising but it keeps on being used, despite lack of evidence. I think PMQ is in its nature adversarial and, as I said before, the two main protagonists are a pretty good match when it comes to abrasiveness. Ms Badenoch certainly gives as good as she gets.

Yes I think Labour’s style is childish and off putting. The emojis, sarcasm and jibes.

It flooded the site pre GE and with that high belief in Labour not much could be done but it’s not working for them. The same arrogance and belittling is annoying and the polls show that.

I have no idea why 'all 3 of us arrived in seconds'. Who are you referring to, and what are you suggesting?

I haven't accused you of wading in on threads, so I have no idea why you are aiming that at me. Nor was I quoting or addressing you when I wrote my pp about my opinion of Starmer's treatment of women. Yet you went on the attack because you didn't like what I said about Starmer, complete with laughing emoji. You respond in this way consistently across all politics threads to any criticism of Starmer.

Just take the bloody olive branch and put it to bed @TheNuthatch.

Oh my..

On to Starmer and his issues. Wonder if they’ll push on policies soon wfa etd

The row back on WFA looks nailed on now looking at today's front pages. I'm not sure how Labour will spin it.

If they have any sense they will say something like we've listened to the electorate, we got it wrong, we're putting it right.

But Blossomtoes criticises Starmer so it isn't true that they do that across all threads.