Starmer Must Go

[BisiBodi]

I made a lengthy post yesterday (on this thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/politics/5333405-changes-to-immigration-rules-announced-by-starmer?page=2 @ 17:43 if you want to read it) regarding the horrendous "island of strangers" speech by Starmer
Today, Kier Starmer has decided to say that immigration has done "incalculable damage" to the country. My despair and fury over this, and the general direction of labour, warrants its own thread.

Starmer claimed in writing that immigrants have put too much pressure on housing and public services (they don't, and he previously said they don't). He added that the immigration system is “almost designed to permit abuse” and that it risks “pulling the country apart”. He said that he wanted to close a “squalid chapter” in our country’s history (of too much immigration in the last few years), and then he seemed to quote the Rivers of Blood speech and said that without significantly reducing immigration the UK risks becoming “an island of strangers".

He's doing this because he's proposing new laws to make immigration harder and bring net migration down (except they definitely won't). Stuff like increasing it to 10 years before you can apply for indefinite leave to remain (10 years!!), introducing English language tests (in a post that suggests Welsh doesn't exist), reducing social care visas (the system would collapse in a day), being tougher on overseas students and reducing the time they can stay after graduation (if you reduce their numbers at all then Universities will be bankrupt immediately), new ID cards, reduce (oh sorry, "clarify") the amount ECHR article 8 can be used to justify people staying on human rights grounds, etc.

When someone pointed out that high migration helps economies and low hurts them, and that this is true in the EU right now and all over the world, Starmer didn't think so. He said that immigration has been high in the UK but the economy has been stagnant, so there can't be any link. Yes Keir, but the economy was stagnant during A PANDEMIC AND ENERGY CRISIS AND COST OF LIVING CRISIS AND EXPENSIVE NEW WARS AND GLOBAL MARKET TRUMP TURMOIL. If the immigrants hadn't kept us level, your "stagnant" economy would have plummeted like a rock. You cannot possibly be presenting that as X=Y in a total vacuum.

This kind of xenophobia doesn't need explaining, but it's worth saying why it won't work and will lose Labour a lot of votes:

• Conservative and Reform voters do NOT change their vote to Labour ever, so this pandering is worthless. But Labour can lose votes to the Greens and LDs at a high rate. Nearly ALL the Reform votes come from former Conservatives.
• Public concern about immigration is low and goes up and down exactly with how much the press is currently going on about it (see the graph) so is not worth alienating your voter base about
• And it is alienating voters, because you've heard this kind of rhetoric before but it was from the actual NF and BNP
• The Mail's headline today was still attacking Labour because it is impossible to ever go far enough for them, or for Reform voters. Nothing is ever enough.

So, Labour saying "Reform are right actually" won't bring a single voter over to Labour, but it sure will lose you a few. Or, er, a lot. People are resigning their Labour membership and sounding furious. I haven't seen a single event trigger this much outrage from the public (and Labour MPs) in quite a while. Starmer has hugely damaged himself. Germany's far-right AfD are praising him, that's the level it's at.

I already left for the Greens, but today has me going even further. I think it's now worth the potential chaos to get rid of Starmer's version of Labour. In a timely article today, Nesrine Malik called our current elections "hostage politics". You MUST vote Labour or the Tories will get in. Now you MUST vote Labour or Reform will get in.

I don't respond well to threats. Never have. I tend to escalate. And I'm bored of their crap: more cuts, keeping first-past-the-post even though Labour members want PR, refusing to talk about rejoining the EU even though Labour members (and the majority of the country) want full rejoin, this xenophobic shit which goes against everything Starmer said about immigration when he was running for leader (but then he's broken every pledge from that time), the anti-trans bollocks, coming for the disabled PIP and saying all benefits are too high and that people are taking advantage of handouts and all the rest.

Fuck these guys. There's pragmatic politics where you compromise, and then there's this literal far-right shit that means you personally HAVE to be comfortable with saying it in public. It's about the soul of the PM and the party. Today is way over the line of sensible cross-party anything.

And I'm done with hostage politics. What, so we keep Labour in for 8 more years of... this? Of the same or more cuts? I'm rapidly approaching the point where smashing this Labour party so that they never try to be centre- / far-right again would do more good than the short-term harm.

Voters didn't show unwavering support for Labour at the last election, they showed that they will be extremely flexible and vote for whoever can win in their area. If Labour become unpopular in the polls, that will be someone else and not them. Labour's lead is incredibly fragile and changeable and today's performance is EXACTLY how they lose it and deserve to lose it. Yes, some young men went to Reform before the election... and twice as many young women went to the Greens. Labour's share fell 21% in 18-24 year olds. You cannot gain a single Reform vote by going right. It will never be far-right enough.
Saying that Reform are correct and using their rhetoric in speeches and changing your policies to theirs is NOT how you defeat them, or run a country.

Replace Starmer, quickly. At the very least.

And so what is the purpose of this thread, other than to vent into an online echo-chamber? I think it's a request to a call to action. It's a call out to everyone who currently resides - whether you like it or not - in a Labour controlled constituency and has a labour MP.

You can easily find out the details, together with links to their speeches and/or voting records, from service such as They Work For You.
Check the details of your MP, and especially their stance on immigration and other matters important to you, then email them.

Yes I’d don’t see why we’d fair worse than comparable countries if we did similar in terms of dealing with the asylum system.

People scaremonger with the outliers but we have a strong background in culture, law and economy. I don’t think Labour will win next time but that’s a separate issue.

Are you Danish?

Sorry but i live in a non migrant area and we've just voted in a Reform councillor.

Rwanda wont be re hashed, it is involved in another countries civil war and neither is Denmark using that country or any other, they have provided money to encourage Syrians to return home but with sanctions lifted, that may well become an open goal.

Italy tried turning boats around and paying N African countries to keep them there but nothing is working particularly well or deterring more Med crossings - when the choice is starvation or war, a risky boat crossing is nothing at all.

& for the n th time, we nor anyone else in Europe, has a handy country to send migrants too.

I don’t think Labour can do it as they may as well not be Labour if they do. But it will likely resurface sand the electorate will be fed up and vote for it.

“Yes, it is very confusing and difficult to understand what exactly Reform does represent.”

Well we do need to ask Nigel Farage what his plan is, even if his voters do not seem to care much about the precise detail.

Nobody in this country will sign up to tow out migrants into open sea. Not anyone professional or trained. So will Reform voters be signing up for that kind of job? I would really like to know what the plan actually is, in detail.

Most likely Farage will trash the entire economy with tax cuts (which will crash the pound) and some populist nonsense like a few pennies off a pint and fags. Then sell more of the NHS to some of his mates.
But if the plan is to get his voters to join an anti immigrant army to tow out migrants and police through fear and racism, we need to know.
So is his plan just populist rant and protest and following incompetence or is it more sinister than that? And if it is the latter, if the Tommy Robinson style gangs are unleashed against the criminal underworld of migrant slave trade, who is actually going to win?
Sounds like a scary prospect all round.

The countries you are citing have the main barrier removed in common. They are not subject to the ECHR.

They both have autonomy over their court system, whereas the EU countries whilst combined have power do not have the same freedom to react to their electorate.

That is distorting politics and will continue pressure until it’s changed.

So your solution is the last para? Interesting.

I also actually hope that the reality is that Labour, Tory and Lib Dem would form a coalition BEFORE anyone would allow Reform into Government.

Runcorn and Helsby is similarly a low immigration area, but elected a Reform MP.

@PandoraSocks As I said earlier, it’s not just immigration. There’s a shift to the right because people perceive no one understands them so they trust the new loud mouth kid on the block. Clearly foolish as we are all worse off due to him. What was turnout? Have not looked, but possibly half a GE turnout? Turnout will be crucial in 4 years time and Starmer’s record. He’s not had a great start and maybe the elderly of Runcorn didn’t like the removal of fuel payments and believe the immigration rhetoric?

We had 3 Reform councillors voted in out of 97 seats but on new estates! Hardly run down areas and no immigrant hotels anywhere. It’s just a reaction and “none of the above” short term thinking.

Amen to that.

I'm not sure the donors would be very interested in a Tory-Labour-LibDem coalition, and then who would pay for Keir's trousers?

Who would Labour blame for stuff, they mention the tories every time.

😁 Can you imagine? And they'd be begging Davies to just let them present a white paper without doing a bungee jump first.

Well most donors are rich people who care deeply about the U.K. ultimately so they would back a coalition, if it really came to it. Nobody in the Establishment wants a Greece /IMF situation so if push comes to shove, that’s what would happen.
So keep dreaming that Reform will hit the jackpot, it won’t happen. Sorry to burst anyone’s delusions.

I don’t think Reform have enough time to field acceptable candidates in time for the next GE.
Which is why I hope Labour come good on their new immigration policies.
It the shite quality immigration that has been allowed that is holding down wages for the blue collar/trades. The very people who traditionally vote labour and labour supposedly supports.

Not sure about this even with the dreaming stuff added on. There’s a lot of antagonism between Tories and Labour. Especially by Labour and using inherited at every turn.

They have 4 YEARS and they are riding high after the local elections. I am sure there is plenty of talent to be plucked from the disenfranchised politicians we currently have… this is doing to be so interesting to watch. Who defects first?

Assuming the Tories were to implode, the defection to Reform would not be a given. Some may well cross the bench or defect to Lib Dem.

It’s far from a given. There are a lot of traditional, one nation Tories who would never contemplate voting Reform, I happen to be married to one. I think he’d give up voting first.

It’s more likely Labour will implode. They have no values, no morals. :Seemingly no direction. They have lost touch entirely with their purpose and voting base. I don’t know how the party still operates even now given the last speech, the MPs must be up in arms.

Both main parties need to be aware of Reform, but it will be Tories who will jump into bed with Reform, Jenrick has already been talking about joining a coalition of the far right.

The Cons are starting from such a low base, just 120 MPs, wont take many to switch and the party will be no more, already losing doners, funding will be an issue for an effective campaign.

Labour also have time on their side, the EU deal will be interesting.

Wishful thinking on your part. It wasn’t Labour that had its worst result in party history last year. And catastrophic results in the local elections, they were bad but the Tories lost more seats.

Yep held 18 councils pre election, lost every single one, including true blue Buckinghamshire.

Tories need to focus on the real challenge to their existence, not continually fighting yesterdays battles.

Yes, I can’t wait to see the details of the EU deal. I am utterly fed up of political infighting and pettiness and just want someone to get on with returning economic stability to our country. And all the baying social media voices and angry mob tends to shut up when they are well fed. Hungry angry people it was produces that.

It’ll be interesting to see impact. Labour seem to want Reform voters back then doesn’t.