Starmer Must Go

[BisiBodi]

I made a lengthy post yesterday (on this thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/politics/5333405-changes-to-immigration-rules-announced-by-starmer?page=2 @ 17:43 if you want to read it) regarding the horrendous "island of strangers" speech by Starmer
Today, Kier Starmer has decided to say that immigration has done "incalculable damage" to the country. My despair and fury over this, and the general direction of labour, warrants its own thread.

Starmer claimed in writing that immigrants have put too much pressure on housing and public services (they don't, and he previously said they don't). He added that the immigration system is “almost designed to permit abuse” and that it risks “pulling the country apart”. He said that he wanted to close a “squalid chapter” in our country’s history (of too much immigration in the last few years), and then he seemed to quote the Rivers of Blood speech and said that without significantly reducing immigration the UK risks becoming “an island of strangers".

He's doing this because he's proposing new laws to make immigration harder and bring net migration down (except they definitely won't). Stuff like increasing it to 10 years before you can apply for indefinite leave to remain (10 years!!), introducing English language tests (in a post that suggests Welsh doesn't exist), reducing social care visas (the system would collapse in a day), being tougher on overseas students and reducing the time they can stay after graduation (if you reduce their numbers at all then Universities will be bankrupt immediately), new ID cards, reduce (oh sorry, "clarify") the amount ECHR article 8 can be used to justify people staying on human rights grounds, etc.

When someone pointed out that high migration helps economies and low hurts them, and that this is true in the EU right now and all over the world, Starmer didn't think so. He said that immigration has been high in the UK but the economy has been stagnant, so there can't be any link. Yes Keir, but the economy was stagnant during A PANDEMIC AND ENERGY CRISIS AND COST OF LIVING CRISIS AND EXPENSIVE NEW WARS AND GLOBAL MARKET TRUMP TURMOIL. If the immigrants hadn't kept us level, your "stagnant" economy would have plummeted like a rock. You cannot possibly be presenting that as X=Y in a total vacuum.

This kind of xenophobia doesn't need explaining, but it's worth saying why it won't work and will lose Labour a lot of votes:

• Conservative and Reform voters do NOT change their vote to Labour ever, so this pandering is worthless. But Labour can lose votes to the Greens and LDs at a high rate. Nearly ALL the Reform votes come from former Conservatives.
• Public concern about immigration is low and goes up and down exactly with how much the press is currently going on about it (see the graph) so is not worth alienating your voter base about
• And it is alienating voters, because you've heard this kind of rhetoric before but it was from the actual NF and BNP
• The Mail's headline today was still attacking Labour because it is impossible to ever go far enough for them, or for Reform voters. Nothing is ever enough.

So, Labour saying "Reform are right actually" won't bring a single voter over to Labour, but it sure will lose you a few. Or, er, a lot. People are resigning their Labour membership and sounding furious. I haven't seen a single event trigger this much outrage from the public (and Labour MPs) in quite a while. Starmer has hugely damaged himself. Germany's far-right AfD are praising him, that's the level it's at.

I already left for the Greens, but today has me going even further. I think it's now worth the potential chaos to get rid of Starmer's version of Labour. In a timely article today, Nesrine Malik called our current elections "hostage politics". You MUST vote Labour or the Tories will get in. Now you MUST vote Labour or Reform will get in.

I don't respond well to threats. Never have. I tend to escalate. And I'm bored of their crap: more cuts, keeping first-past-the-post even though Labour members want PR, refusing to talk about rejoining the EU even though Labour members (and the majority of the country) want full rejoin, this xenophobic shit which goes against everything Starmer said about immigration when he was running for leader (but then he's broken every pledge from that time), the anti-trans bollocks, coming for the disabled PIP and saying all benefits are too high and that people are taking advantage of handouts and all the rest.

Fuck these guys. There's pragmatic politics where you compromise, and then there's this literal far-right shit that means you personally HAVE to be comfortable with saying it in public. It's about the soul of the PM and the party. Today is way over the line of sensible cross-party anything.

And I'm done with hostage politics. What, so we keep Labour in for 8 more years of... this? Of the same or more cuts? I'm rapidly approaching the point where smashing this Labour party so that they never try to be centre- / far-right again would do more good than the short-term harm.

Voters didn't show unwavering support for Labour at the last election, they showed that they will be extremely flexible and vote for whoever can win in their area. If Labour become unpopular in the polls, that will be someone else and not them. Labour's lead is incredibly fragile and changeable and today's performance is EXACTLY how they lose it and deserve to lose it. Yes, some young men went to Reform before the election... and twice as many young women went to the Greens. Labour's share fell 21% in 18-24 year olds. You cannot gain a single Reform vote by going right. It will never be far-right enough.
Saying that Reform are correct and using their rhetoric in speeches and changing your policies to theirs is NOT how you defeat them, or run a country.

Replace Starmer, quickly. At the very least.

And so what is the purpose of this thread, other than to vent into an online echo-chamber? I think it's a request to a call to action. It's a call out to everyone who currently resides - whether you like it or not - in a Labour controlled constituency and has a labour MP.

You can easily find out the details, together with links to their speeches and/or voting records, from service such as They Work For You.
Check the details of your MP, and especially their stance on immigration and other matters important to you, then email them.

You’re focusing on the wrong barrier. Rn it’s laws that politicians are struggling with to get where the electorate want, it’s not the physical location that’s the issue.

Once they have mandate to overcome that it gets easier to copy another system that works.

I’m surprised you haven’t put forward a way to do it given how many threads, it’s not going to be an issue countries give up on. The pressure just needs to be there from the electorate.

I’ve reported it. It’s disgraceful.

Where would you send them? Given that we don’t have a handy island like Australia does.

Do people know about Nauru, a lack of insight is part of the issue. It’s not an Aus island.

Again the main barrier is the laws, if the electorate votes on that it’s doable.

Loyal Labour voters will be most opposed as it’s the least likely their party will win on that basis.

Whatever, public sentiment will force politicians to react or get voted out.

Nauru is an island. 🤷‍♀️

Well done.

It’s the only one ever of course..

It is unhinged.

We actually should read and absorb what we don’t like. I’m against shutting off debate and being in an echo chamber. To some extent it’s why we have mounting issues now.

We know what section of society is having more babies so I’m sure some data crunchers have worked out where that leads us.

Starmer is having to grapple with immigration because it’s risen to the top of the political agenda again. Many second generation immigrants don’t want high immigration and many are Labour voters. They and the working class will vote Reform and have demonstrated that. Just look at voting patterns! We are sleepwalking into a far right country if Starmer does nothing.

We look around Europe and find everyone else doing the same. The right is on the rise. The rules covering those seeking asylum are 70 years old. Times were different then and it’s now due a rewrite. Urgently.

Sorry but imho it is very much the location and yes very much aware that Nauru isn't part of Australia but Australia has close ties with the Republic - even uses their currency and with PNG.

Surely you some ideas, once laws changed?

Very few places in the world will want to take 10s of 1000s of migrants permanently from the UK, we don't have an Empire anymore.

It is getting very dangerous we had a stabbing last night in our area it is a very nice area...outskirts of London this never happens here.

The stabbing happened outside of McDonalds which is full of Deliveroo/Just Eat bikes parked outside day and night it looks the united nations....so there we go...it's lawless and many don't value life...carrying knives.

We had one other stabbing incident about a year ago and that also involved illegal immogrants....it is terrifying!!

What could possibly go wrong allow in masses oy young men who have come from 3rd world countries throw them altogether and hey! Trouble with a capital T

It is uncomfortable for locals too being leered at and stared at...it needs to stop.

You can do what you like @TizerorFizz. I’m not prepared to let racist ranting stand so it can incite others.

You’re still focusing on the wrong barrier.

But since you’ve said you haven’t proposed anything do you mean you believe nothing will resolve the issue at any point?

That other countries can resolve it but the U.K. can’t?

Let’s be realistic here. Are Reform voters voting for far more spend on Police, ID cards, CCTV everywhere and prisons built and massive cuts to benefits in return and a privatised NHS? Do they realise that that is what they are ultimately voting for. So for many of them it is going to cost them the most.

I also reported that racist rant, its not shutting down debate, its about having some standards.

All the law changes in the world wont stop a boat crossing the channel.

Unless you want to have the boats towed out into international waters and left there?

Which tbh is where i think we are heading.

That’s up to you but unfortunately there’s going to be millions of voters thinking like that. Ignoring them won’t now work. Of course some of it is pure racist hyperbole but it’s feeding right wing politics all over Europe. How do you think it can be stopped? No one is working out how to stop people thinking like this because their experience is feeding their voting patterns. It will be to the detriment of us all.

And in a controlled more policed state, you also need the citizens themselves to fulfil that role, which means reporting your neighbour for breaking rules/cheating the system etc.

@jasflowers Mn can do what they want. Unfortunately this stuff is rife and it will inform politics. Sitting in the nice world, not hearing what you don’t like, won’t solve anything. It’s what we’ve done for some years now. The right is getting organised. I don’t like it. If you don’t take on board what these people are saying (and some for 25 plus years!) we are going to pay a heavy price. Mn might shut it down but it’s not going away.

Labour or the Cons moving to the right wont stop people voting Reform, why have a copy when you can have the real thing?

Starmer moves a little to the right and all he has got is criticism all along the lines of "oh he is only doing this because of Reform" he cannot win, just as it never worked for Sunak either or in Germany or France.

But as Meloni found out, for europe, stopping the migrants is almost impossible.

It’s not impossible otherwise no one would have done it.

Do you think the UK will just see rising numbers over the next few decades?

@jasflowers There are hard right thinkers and some who might waver. Starmer has to go for these. Another fear is the ones who think very little but “just want change”. Starmer fed into that a year ago and might well be the victim of it in 4 years. If he can get some improvement in stats, it might give him a lifeline. Or the change will be to the far right. We would then much rather have a moderate like Sunak back!

It'll cost more in the long run if we don't deal with these issues.

That's fine with me. I want to see ALL laws and rules enforced properly. If that means reporting neighbours, then fair enough. Take the "Black economy" - it's costing billions in tax evasion and benefit/CMS fraud, and that's something that some of your/our neighbours WILL be engaging in. It's out of control because of lack of effective enforcement/policing. Same with "minor" traffic offences, fly tipping, planning violations, even litter and dog fouling. We're becoming an ever more lawless society with fewer and fewer people complying because they see others not complying and not being punished in any way.

everyone knew what was happening, but no one in authority cared enough to do anything about it.

Or they were frightened of being called racist.

Which is just as bad. Quite nauseating to see our local MP on the TV bemoaning how awful it was that so many people lost their lives and that the authorities hadn't known anything about when, when I had actually written to her some months before to express my concerns about the unsafe working practices, the illegal pick up trucks running riot on the roads around the bay, etc! - the same letter I also copied to the local police, local city councillors, etc. Yet they all claimed they didn't know! It was bloody obvious - loads of locals knew - letters in the local newspaper almost every week about it! The same is happening all over the country - maybe not in Bays, but in hand car washes, turkish barbers, nail bars, massage parlours, drug dealing, etc etc. Modern slavery is a real and growing problem, but the authorities simply won't listen. Whether it's because they're scared of being called racists, scared of the lefties, or just don't give a shit, I really don't know.