Starmer Must Go

[BisiBodi]

I made a lengthy post yesterday (on this thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/politics/5333405-changes-to-immigration-rules-announced-by-starmer?page=2 @ 17:43 if you want to read it) regarding the horrendous "island of strangers" speech by Starmer
Today, Kier Starmer has decided to say that immigration has done "incalculable damage" to the country. My despair and fury over this, and the general direction of labour, warrants its own thread.

Starmer claimed in writing that immigrants have put too much pressure on housing and public services (they don't, and he previously said they don't). He added that the immigration system is “almost designed to permit abuse” and that it risks “pulling the country apart”. He said that he wanted to close a “squalid chapter” in our country’s history (of too much immigration in the last few years), and then he seemed to quote the Rivers of Blood speech and said that without significantly reducing immigration the UK risks becoming “an island of strangers".

He's doing this because he's proposing new laws to make immigration harder and bring net migration down (except they definitely won't). Stuff like increasing it to 10 years before you can apply for indefinite leave to remain (10 years!!), introducing English language tests (in a post that suggests Welsh doesn't exist), reducing social care visas (the system would collapse in a day), being tougher on overseas students and reducing the time they can stay after graduation (if you reduce their numbers at all then Universities will be bankrupt immediately), new ID cards, reduce (oh sorry, "clarify") the amount ECHR article 8 can be used to justify people staying on human rights grounds, etc.

When someone pointed out that high migration helps economies and low hurts them, and that this is true in the EU right now and all over the world, Starmer didn't think so. He said that immigration has been high in the UK but the economy has been stagnant, so there can't be any link. Yes Keir, but the economy was stagnant during A PANDEMIC AND ENERGY CRISIS AND COST OF LIVING CRISIS AND EXPENSIVE NEW WARS AND GLOBAL MARKET TRUMP TURMOIL. If the immigrants hadn't kept us level, your "stagnant" economy would have plummeted like a rock. You cannot possibly be presenting that as X=Y in a total vacuum.

This kind of xenophobia doesn't need explaining, but it's worth saying why it won't work and will lose Labour a lot of votes:

• Conservative and Reform voters do NOT change their vote to Labour ever, so this pandering is worthless. But Labour can lose votes to the Greens and LDs at a high rate. Nearly ALL the Reform votes come from former Conservatives.
• Public concern about immigration is low and goes up and down exactly with how much the press is currently going on about it (see the graph) so is not worth alienating your voter base about
• And it is alienating voters, because you've heard this kind of rhetoric before but it was from the actual NF and BNP
• The Mail's headline today was still attacking Labour because it is impossible to ever go far enough for them, or for Reform voters. Nothing is ever enough.

So, Labour saying "Reform are right actually" won't bring a single voter over to Labour, but it sure will lose you a few. Or, er, a lot. People are resigning their Labour membership and sounding furious. I haven't seen a single event trigger this much outrage from the public (and Labour MPs) in quite a while. Starmer has hugely damaged himself. Germany's far-right AfD are praising him, that's the level it's at.

I already left for the Greens, but today has me going even further. I think it's now worth the potential chaos to get rid of Starmer's version of Labour. In a timely article today, Nesrine Malik called our current elections "hostage politics". You MUST vote Labour or the Tories will get in. Now you MUST vote Labour or Reform will get in.

I don't respond well to threats. Never have. I tend to escalate. And I'm bored of their crap: more cuts, keeping first-past-the-post even though Labour members want PR, refusing to talk about rejoining the EU even though Labour members (and the majority of the country) want full rejoin, this xenophobic shit which goes against everything Starmer said about immigration when he was running for leader (but then he's broken every pledge from that time), the anti-trans bollocks, coming for the disabled PIP and saying all benefits are too high and that people are taking advantage of handouts and all the rest.

Fuck these guys. There's pragmatic politics where you compromise, and then there's this literal far-right shit that means you personally HAVE to be comfortable with saying it in public. It's about the soul of the PM and the party. Today is way over the line of sensible cross-party anything.

And I'm done with hostage politics. What, so we keep Labour in for 8 more years of... this? Of the same or more cuts? I'm rapidly approaching the point where smashing this Labour party so that they never try to be centre- / far-right again would do more good than the short-term harm.

Voters didn't show unwavering support for Labour at the last election, they showed that they will be extremely flexible and vote for whoever can win in their area. If Labour become unpopular in the polls, that will be someone else and not them. Labour's lead is incredibly fragile and changeable and today's performance is EXACTLY how they lose it and deserve to lose it. Yes, some young men went to Reform before the election... and twice as many young women went to the Greens. Labour's share fell 21% in 18-24 year olds. You cannot gain a single Reform vote by going right. It will never be far-right enough.
Saying that Reform are correct and using their rhetoric in speeches and changing your policies to theirs is NOT how you defeat them, or run a country.

Replace Starmer, quickly. At the very least.

And so what is the purpose of this thread, other than to vent into an online echo-chamber? I think it's a request to a call to action. It's a call out to everyone who currently resides - whether you like it or not - in a Labour controlled constituency and has a labour MP.

You can easily find out the details, together with links to their speeches and/or voting records, from service such as They Work For You.
Check the details of your MP, and especially their stance on immigration and other matters important to you, then email them.

You sweet child.

Have you even seen an HMO or a caravan park and how people live there? Work, save and send money home.

The main barrier so far to dealing with this is lack of mandate. Now Starmer has done island of strangers and people will say they are fed up, Reform is still over 30%

If Starmer sticks to ‘smash the gangs’ the pp who find a system that works hard to read about will dwindle to a few on mn.

If they worked they wouldn’t get benefits. Are you seriously saying that people endure all the trials of travelling across the world for £8 a week? Or that an enhanced wage is worth it when the cost of living is correspondingly higher? This place is like Wonderland at the moment.

@BIossomtoes I wonder if you have ever spent significant time in any very impoverished countries?

You're out of touch. Do you know how uc works with top ups for minimum wage workers? The system was designed to counter the cost of living with the benefits of work.

I’m not out of touch at all. Obviously if we allowed asylum seekers to work while they were waiting to be processed we wouldn’t give them access to top up benefits. They wouldn’t be entitled to them anyway given that they’re predominantly single.

Your argument doesn't stack up. Do you honestly believe that if asylum seekers were granted the right to work, they wouldn't be allowed to access top up benefits? A human rights lawyer would have a field day with that one!

There’s no reason why they couldn’t be excepted, they’re not getting the same benefits as the resident UK population now. And once again the majority of asylum seekers are single and wouldn’t qualify for top ups anyway.

How do you think it would work exactly? If they were working then they'd presumably be paying for their own accommodation, bills, prescriptions etc? How would that be affordable in nmw without access to uc top ups? As for them being single, uc is not limited to families, it's for anyone on a low income. It's a nice idea, but just not workable.

TBF its highly unlikely any one who fails asylum but cannot be deported for whatever reason, is going to stay here.

So they may as well work, what else are they going to do? live in hotels, which will far exceed a UC claim.

Appreciate its a pull factor and they may well seek to bring families over too but what else is there?

No one can come up with practical solutions, just hot air statements like "Deport them" "empty the jails of foreign crims" "put them in detention centres"

Or the classic "Australia has solved the problem" without telling us all where we should conjure up our own off shore Island from.....

All have real practical and huge cost issues or require magic.

@jasflowers

its highly unlikely any one who fails asylum but cannot be deported for whatever reason, is going to stay here.

They disappear into the black economy, modern slavery, criminality, living in squalid conditions several to a room above dodgy kebab shops. They really don't just hop on an Easy Jet to go somewhere else! They get fake IDs or share IDs. Become Just Eat delivers, pretend to be mobile phone repairs in dodgy mobile accessory shops or pretend to be barbers in Turkish barbers.

The Morecambe Bay cockle pickers were living in squalid stained mattresses on floors, several to a room. They were basically slaves. And many lost their lives because of complete lack of any oversight nor enforcement from the authorities, council, police, local politicians - everyone knew what was happening, but no one in authority cared enough to do anything about it.

You’re right it’s not viable. And even more the two posters who keep knocking down anything that has worked for other countries are against the tide of the electorate anyway.

No politician will run on the things they want. Parties that want to get in will look to other countries and run on similar.

I incorrectly wrote that sentence, i meant they will stay here! they have no alternative - How would they leave the country and enter another?

Which is why i suggested they are given the right to work etc

On the wider point that they disappear into he Black Economy, as you say, thats down to UK lack of enforcement, i'm sure there are many people already here, who work in this way, whilst claiming benefits.

The Aus one should worry you more, as it appears to, as it is the only one that has worked anywhere. Labour loyals will react as it’s the one thing Labour can’t go with.

And you’re facing defeat by a party that will propose something hardline.

As for money that’s already in the billions. That’s another reason why it’s done.

A dig at me from you who cannot suggest a place where we could ALL send migrants, just keeps telling us about your wonderful Australia 😂

It’s ok I responded directly. It is wonderful, your emoji is pointless.

Moreover no politician will propose what you want. We’re 10 months in and Reform at 33% and Starmer’s on island of strangers and Balkan hubs already.

Do you notice what’s happening with this?

No you have not, you keep on about Aus, saying we should adopt the same model but cannot name a single country/Island where we could send all migrants as per Australia 😴

Seriously, what exactly have i proposed?

All i ve done is call out these stupid suggestions inc now Starmers "Hubs" idea, i mean which country in their right mind is going to accept 10s of 1000s of migrants?
Esp the Balkans, given their history of race and war.

Did you read Starmers speech or just that one sentence?

If it was as easy as you suggest to stop migration, it would have been done.

We cannot stop people entering. All we can do is adapt our own systems so that there is less incentive to come. Crack down on law enforcement, ID cards for NHS access, raid properties and ban landlords who rent out to illegal migrants (perhaps even financial penalties, lose your property type thing). You need really strong deterrents here.
If people are using UberEats and Deliveroo and many are illegals (is that true) then it is on the people using those services. You have to close those loopholes first.
And I still do not see how a lot of young strong healthy men cannot be put to work and trained up into something useful for society.
Mass immigration is here to stay. We have a falling birth rate whilst Africa is still booming and climate change will make some of Africa even worse to live in. So solutions have to be found that work economically.

You haven’t proposed anything? just emojis and the usual jibes. Ok well that’s not working for you, the direction isn’t allowing work it’s what is right in front of you. Higher Reform polls and more hardline measures.

Plus it’s taking out established parties, if you look where you can’t stand they have just elected a centre left gov with hardline border policy still in place.

We don’t have that political stability because the electorate are pressuring on change.

It’ll keep going up until politicians propose similar and if not done beforehand they will likely win.

As for Starmer’s hubs they likely will fail too leading to Reform proposing more.

We also have to be very clear about our value system and what is and is not acceptable here. At the moment, everything goes so people do not necessarily have to adapt. If you have clear cultural expectations and enforcement both in the health and benefits system and demand people to clean and clear up mess in streets etc, then they will adapt. Look at Switzerland where I have been going regularly as my DS went to uni there. They have migrants and most are adapting due to their stringent laws and expectations.

Nail on the head. For a lot of people, it's not "immigration" as such they object to, it's the complete lack of enforcement of existing laws, whether litter, traffic, employment, tax, living standards, etc. added to pressure on public services like roads, housing, health, social care, etc. Too many people, too quickly, not enough resources to look after them nor "control" them via policing etc. It's taken a while but more people are realising now that it's affecting the previously unaffected "naice" areas.

Ok lets take a step back?

Where could the UK send migrants? or failing that, what deterrents would you have the UK put in place?

For a lot of cultures that come here, the uber-liberal society of the UK is just incompatible, either with their own values or their own incentives. They need strong boundaries and law enforcement and instead get an anything goes approach and are treated with kid gloves.

Telling young male adults who may have grown up in an oppressive society, that they can basically just do what they want is not helpful to anyone.

@JustMeAndTheKid
Hmm, I'm not convinced that's an entirely accurate description of all Muslims 🤯😳