The far right in Germany

[username44416]

Chillingly it looks like the far right AfD party has taken Saxony and Thuringia. Many in the party are Nazi sympathisers; is Europe's largest power on the brink of a resurgence in fascism?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/sep/01/german-far-right-party-afd-state-election-victory-thuringia

@DogInATent

"Why don't you look up their policies and decide for yourself?"

So you also don't know - that's fine at least I'm not the only one.

I do know. Because I took the trouble to look it up.

You don't care, so stop pretending. You're a right-wing denier. If you're ok with that why should I waste time on you?

@DogInATent

I" do know. Because I took the trouble to look it up.

You don't care, so stop pretending. You're a right-wing denier. If you're ok with that why should I waste time on you?"

Ok so you do know but just aren't willing to tell anyone.

How can I be a far right wing denier when no one can actually define what it is?

This is rather bizarre.

They campaigned on remigration which means they want to expel anyone not of German ethnicity from Germany.

They had a meeting a few months ago with far right groups regarding mass remigration programmes.

Their leader uses Nazi slogans when campaigning. Many of their members are Nazi sympathisers. They were classed by a court as an extremist far right organisation and put under surveillance.

There's more, but that's the gist.

@username44416

Thank you for your informative response.

The issue we have here is the British media, politicians and luddites keeness to label anyone that doesn't believe in their idea of progressiveness (ie twaw, pro-immigration, etc etc etc) are labelled far right. So much so that most central people have just become so used to the term that its just another label.
Now, when the far right, the actual far right, fucking nazi saluting far right come along, we have to ask, are they really far right, or is this just another attempt to shut down rational, polite conversation.

You either believe in democracy or you don't. If these groups are continually being voted in then perhaps it's time to listen to the concerns of the people voting.

Now, when the far right, the actual far right, fucking nazi saluting far right come along, we have to ask, are they really far right, or is this just another attempt to shut down rational, polite conversation

I'm not sure how more far right you get than Nazis or Nazi sympathisers. These people want mass remigration programmes in Germany and use Nazi slogans while campaigning. They have been classed as an extremist organisation and associate with far right groups.

I don't think someone like Farage is far right, he's a right wing populist, though I can easily see how his anti immigration stance and other rhetoric could easily slip into the far right spectrum. He uses dog whistle politics, I've heard him use some far right phrases but he's very clever and has never been explicit.

However he does support dubious people such as Putin who he openly admires, Enoch Powell and has expressed sympathy for Andrew Tate. The problem with someone like Farage is his ability to draw the Overton window towards the far right.

I think that desire to label the other view goes both ways. Suddenly everything has become binary - you're wither hard-right or woke-lefty, you're either a trans ally or a TERF. And as for snowflake, that's usually most used by the people that are most triggered by the view they oppose.

The reality is that most people have much more complex views on things. But this requires rational debate, communication, and compromise. There's no instant political gain in starting a debate that's going to take two years to achieve agreement somewhere in the middle.

But the ArD are definitely Hard Right. They started out as a right-of-centre Eurosceptic party, but changes of leadership a have brought a hardening of policy and a move to the extreme. If a party is seen as appealing to self-identifying or convicted neo-fascists then it's highly unlikely to be anything other than hard right. Reform is not as far out there as AfD, but it clearly had the same problem with appealing to the Far Right when you look at the issues it had with vetting parliamentary candidates.

I lived on the Eastern side of Germany 20 years ago, and tbh it felt like some sort of Utopia for women in contrast to other places I’ve lived in Europe. I’m unsurprised people are resistant to change, and terrified by the changes they’re seeing currently.

When someone lowered the picture of a lettuce with googly eyes during Liz Truss's speech she was labelling them far left intimidating people. This was at a similar time to far right people rioting and trying to burn down mosques and asylum seekers hotels.
I mean, it doesn't really compare in terms of intimidating people does it?

You either believe in democracy or you don't. If these groups are continually being voted in then perhaps it's time to listen to the concerns of the people voting.

This

The whole world is -
Trump in America
Putin in Russia
Viktor Orban in Hungary
Georgia Meloni in Italy
Marine Le Pen in France
The Sweden 'Democrats'
Nigel Farage
Swiss People's Party
Finland
Etc. Etc.

The problem with fascism is that often it's not that easy to recognise.

But how democratic are these parties? - once elected how responsive will Farage be to the concerns of his Clacton constituents.

In the UK they haven't been voted in, they only have 5 MPs which is an irrelevance. Their only political significance is the extent to which they've broken the Conservative party. They've already withdrawn the contract with the people they stood under, and Farage is playing about with the company rules to ensure he can dictate every aspect of its operation. At least BSW is open and honest about being a one-woman show.

I actually favour proportional representation under a very similar arrangement to that used in Germany, which would theoretically have given Reform many more seats - although, I believe, not as many as they'd think, because under a different system people would likely vote at least slightly differently. Much as I despise Farage and what Reform represent, I would favour a reform of the electoral system that would give them greater representation to reflect their vote share. But do I think they'd play nicely in a PR system? - no, I don't. I think they'd bicker, throw their toys out the pram, be as rude and childish as they were as MEPs, and act as a massive anchor to any prospect of compromise and achievement.

@ichundich

"The problem with fascism is that often it's not that easy to recognise."

The problem I have with fascism is that again nobody seems to be able to define it.

The term seems to be thrown around without anyone really understanding what it means.

I disagree about Trump's influence, @dottiehens. I think Trump's belligerence, his willingness to deny the truth, his tendency to bully/intimidate, all have signaled to others that it may be a useful method to get your way. Some people even quote him.

Oh don't worry, "ethnic German" will be defined in such a way that British people (white, of course) are OK. After all, they're probably descended from a Saxon at some point along the line. 🙄

Yep.

@Boowaoshah

I lived on the Eastern side of Germany 20 years ago, and tbh it felt like some sort of Utopia for women in contrast to other places I’ve lived in Europe.

Could you expand on that? Because it doesn't really say anything without explanation.

@suburberphobe well just very safe.
Freedoms to me that felt unusual, like as a woman being able to utilise all parts of the day without feeling threatened , and feeling reassured that should I feel threatened, police would be there in a flash. Cycling home from a bar in the early hours alone, swimming in remote areas freely. I barely ever faced harassment or intimidation, from anyone.
Also I guess it was less populated, so fewer demands on services , access to appropriate healthcare, affordable childcare, and so on. I suppose they are the freedoms that people are reluctant to give up due if there’s a sudden influx of people, into a system that doesn’t have the capacity.
Women well represented , visible and respected across society , in the police force and so on.

My sense that was conservative voters who saw the need for change but weren't happy with Labour. Lots of it was tactical or knowing the vote for Reform wasn't very unlikely to upset the predicted Labour landslide.

Women all around Europe have been ignored about this for too long. My SIL and her family are in Sweden, what has happened over there is devastating. London is unrecognisable from when I lived there in the mid 80s.

So everyone who votes Reform is racist?

Of the ones I've met, it's running bloody close to 100%.
But maybe I have set the bar lower than you as to what counts as racist.