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Politics

When will things get better under Labour?

153 replies

Tregaronableist · 05/08/2024 09:30

I remember reading a thread asking this, just after the election results. My thoughts at the time were that things wouldn’t change much. I’ve seen governments come and go and nothing much changes. We are the same people, the same country, the same industries and we have the same amount of money.

It’s depressing to see what is going on currently. Is it because we now have a left wing government? If the riots were happening under the Tories would the agitators be labelled as far left?

OP posts:
dubsie · 28/08/2024 21:51

Tregaronableist · 05/08/2024 09:30

I remember reading a thread asking this, just after the election results. My thoughts at the time were that things wouldn’t change much. I’ve seen governments come and go and nothing much changes. We are the same people, the same country, the same industries and we have the same amount of money.

It’s depressing to see what is going on currently. Is it because we now have a left wing government? If the riots were happening under the Tories would the agitators be labelled as far left?

It will take a decade to undo the damage the torys have done. After that you may see some green shoots, realistically Labour need 15 years in power to make a big difference.

There's no money and yet the country needs money spending in every department. There isn't anything that is working or functional at the moment...the Tories have broken Britain unfortunately

Rummly · 28/08/2024 21:54

dubsie · 28/08/2024 21:51

It will take a decade to undo the damage the torys have done. After that you may see some green shoots, realistically Labour need 15 years in power to make a big difference.

There's no money and yet the country needs money spending in every department. There isn't anything that is working or functional at the moment...the Tories have broken Britain unfortunately

Oh yes, after 13 years of Blair and Brown it was great.

🙄

BIossomtoes · 28/08/2024 21:58

Rummly · 28/08/2024 21:54

Oh yes, after 13 years of Blair and Brown it was great.

🙄

It was. Shame the Tories had to ruin it all with their usual slash and burn.

amigafan2003 · 28/08/2024 22:13

Tregaronableist · 05/08/2024 09:30

I remember reading a thread asking this, just after the election results. My thoughts at the time were that things wouldn’t change much. I’ve seen governments come and go and nothing much changes. We are the same people, the same country, the same industries and we have the same amount of money.

It’s depressing to see what is going on currently. Is it because we now have a left wing government? If the riots were happening under the Tories would the agitators be labelled as far left?

It's already better - teachers getting a well deserved pay rise, doctors strikes stopped, looks like the train strikes will be halted too.

upinaballoon · 29/08/2024 12:35

Rummly · 28/08/2024 21:54

Oh yes, after 13 years of Blair and Brown it was great.

🙄

Why did they go out of office?

BIossomtoes · 29/08/2024 12:37

upinaballoon · 29/08/2024 12:35

Why did they go out of office?

Because Clegg made the egregious mistake of turning right instead of left. It was hardly a decisive election result, was it?

upinaballoon · 29/08/2024 12:41

For how many weeks or months at the beginning of a new administration should a party keep repeating the mantra, "It's all the last lot's fault."
No, I am not suggesting that any party does it more than another.

upinaballoon · 29/08/2024 12:52

senua · 28/08/2024 11:07

It took until 1999 when they started working families tax credit that things improved.
That was an absolute disaster. When employers realised that the Government would step in with benefits - and employers had this fact shoved in their faces because they had to administer it through the payroll system - then they immediately resorted to paying the least that they could get away with, knowing that the Govt would pay top-ups.
As an accountant, I was used to lectures and seminars on how to reduce taxes on the higher paid. I knew something was seriously wrong when we started to get seminars on how to maximise benefits for them!

This was the start of the low wage economy, not helped by Blair allowing in cheap workers from the EU. Labour started the rich/poor divide we have had for the last quarter of a century.

This is an interesting post. From where I was, not an accountant, working but not qualifying for any of the credits, just an onlooker, it didn't seem awful for a government to say that they wanted to encourage people to take work and so they'd augment low wages. There are lots of perspectives to every situation.

senua · 29/08/2024 13:31

it didn't seem awful for a government to say that they wanted to encourage people to take work and so they'd augment low wages.
It was typical Labour: sounds great in theory but doesn't work in practise.

See taxguru's post of* *Yesterday 11:15 to see more detail of how WFTC didn't translate into the real world.

upinaballoon · 29/08/2024 18:47

I did read it before. Thank you.

TooBigForMyBoots · 29/08/2024 18:51

Moier · 28/08/2024 13:27

It won't..we are doomed.
The country is already going into a depression.
My friends and family who voted Labour ( most always have) are now regretting it

Have you told Capain Mainwaring?

EmpressoftheMundane · 03/09/2024 21:51

Does anyone think Labour will bring in a 0.5% property tax in October? I keep hearing it mooted in different places.

ALT72 · 04/09/2024 11:31

amigafan2003 · 28/08/2024 22:13

It's already better - teachers getting a well deserved pay rise, doctors strikes stopped, looks like the train strikes will be halted too.

Yeah right and who’s paying for that? Plus they’re still carrying on with train strikes - no matter how much pay rise they get, they will never stop. Labour are clueless about economy.

LadyGabriella · 04/09/2024 11:33

Suspect it won’t. They tend to throw good money after bad especially with regards to the monster money pit that is the NHS. It needs massive internal reform before it needs more money.

nearlylovemyusername · 04/09/2024 12:40

It depends on if you're state worker or anyone else. If former, this will get better for you very soon - pay rise, no change to pension, four working days week etc.

If you're outside of this group and God forbid having some drive and aspiration - it won't get better at all. You'll have higher taxes to pay, you pension will be reduced, you won't be able to pass much to your kids. Your kids school won't improve as it will only get 0.3 extra teacher (no idea where they will be recruited from) but ex PS kids will join as well. You won't get extra NHS time because consultants will reduce their time/retire earlier.

Wales is your blueprint - do you think it's improvement vs where you are now?

There is not a single fully thought through and workable policy so far apart from redistribution.

ALT72 · 04/09/2024 13:12

nearlylovemyusername · 04/09/2024 12:40

It depends on if you're state worker or anyone else. If former, this will get better for you very soon - pay rise, no change to pension, four working days week etc.

If you're outside of this group and God forbid having some drive and aspiration - it won't get better at all. You'll have higher taxes to pay, you pension will be reduced, you won't be able to pass much to your kids. Your kids school won't improve as it will only get 0.3 extra teacher (no idea where they will be recruited from) but ex PS kids will join as well. You won't get extra NHS time because consultants will reduce their time/retire earlier.

Wales is your blueprint - do you think it's improvement vs where you are now?

There is not a single fully thought through and workable policy so far apart from redistribution.

Absolutely spot on!

Tryingtokeepgoing · 04/09/2024 13:32

BIossomtoes · 28/08/2024 18:42

Her policies are at the root of everything that’s wrong. We have a housing crisis because she decimated social housing, we have a stagnant economy and areas of deprivation because she stripped all the industry out of the country. She privatised everything in sight leading to lack of investment in utilities to line investors’ pockets. You need to look at what’s wrong and why. The successive Labour governments achieved miracles in 13 years, only for their achievements to be torn apart by the next iteration of Tories.

That’s certainly one left leaning and red tinted spin on life 😂

I understand you had a particularly good set of experiences during the heady days of the late 90s early 00s, presumably as a result of where you were in your life at the time. But at a macroeconomic and geopolitical level history hasn’t judged that period kindly, on the global stage.

Parking ones biases, once could say that the housing crisis has been fuelled by a planning system not fit for purpose, a culturally NIMBYism against any development, and a failure of every government for the last 50 years to invest in social housing. Our economy is actually performing better than most in Europe, and getting out of dying industries like mining and steel and into to services, automotive, and biotech was a master stroke really. The UK economy has attracted more inward investment over an extended period of time than many. BREXIT was an own goal, but that Cameron’s fault for calling a a referendum without a plan, and Corbyn / Starmers fault for not wanting (former) or being capable of (latter) to run an effective ‘Remain’ campaign

Privatisation of phones, gas, electricity and rail improved customer service and lowered cost to consumers. Privatising water was short sighted, and regulation under every government since has been woeful.

Then of course there’s the matter of the lies and the wars, and the waste of life that resulted from them. Not to mention the years of tawdry spin, the loan scandals, the unreported gifts end the complete milking of MPs expense by all parties.

It’s just as easy to put a similarly blue tinted right leaning spin on 13 years of Labour government, but these entrenched party political positions don’t actually help the country, or encourage reasonable debate that might engage people.

One could easily say that 13 years of Labour managed to destroy private sector pensions. They created a low skills / low wage / benefit dependent economy destroying aspiration and hope for generations of graduates. They kneecapped the NHS by saddling it with debt that it has taken 2 generations to pay back. Their completely short term policy of appeasement meant that no long term plans existed for future healthcare delivery. They did the same with education. And the coalition and Tory governments didn’t improve things.

However, I’m not wedded to either ideology…I just see on both sides of the House of Commons being made up mostly of a bunch of slightly well meaning, slightly dim, and slightly ineffective politicians with the common sense and debating skills of a student union representative.

To give her her credit, Thatcher had an unerring believe that she was doing the right thing for the country, and as a result was willing to take tough decisions. Maybe Starmer is the same. And, looking at our economy in the 20 years after, she was probably right. Life in the UK was grim in the 10 or so years before. History judges her accordingly.

Bliar never really had any convictions. History has him down for the con man he was.
Brown had convictions but no political nouse whatsoever. History has forgotten him.
Major understood the role, and just stuck to the day job. History judges him more kindly by the day.
Osborne was competent, but overly confident. The referendum shows that. He’ll be judged forever on that decision.

May was ernest but forgettable. She was fundamentally a good person though.
Truss was a joke and history will forever laugh at her
Johnson winged it, and like all who do , some things worked and somethings didn’t. History will be pleased that Corbyn wasn’t in charge during a pandemic, and will judge Johnson as a shyster.
Sunak is also a bright, competent man who must have had a drive for public service. He certainly didn’t need the money. But as the last act in a dying Tory government he was always doomed.

Starmer? Too early to say. Autocratic? Probably - people who are out of their depth often are initially, until they grow into the role. A technocratic leader - yes. But that doesn’t bring people with you. Has he got a long term plan? Yes. Will he be honest with people and tell them what it is? No…because the default position for the left of centre elite has always been - we know best, you don’t need to know the details. Trust us. We are right.

We get the politics, and the politicians, we deserve.

StarDolphins · 04/09/2024 14:18

Thing wont get better, they’ll get far worse.

StarDolphins · 04/09/2024 14:19

nearlylovemyusername · 04/09/2024 12:40

It depends on if you're state worker or anyone else. If former, this will get better for you very soon - pay rise, no change to pension, four working days week etc.

If you're outside of this group and God forbid having some drive and aspiration - it won't get better at all. You'll have higher taxes to pay, you pension will be reduced, you won't be able to pass much to your kids. Your kids school won't improve as it will only get 0.3 extra teacher (no idea where they will be recruited from) but ex PS kids will join as well. You won't get extra NHS time because consultants will reduce their time/retire earlier.

Wales is your blueprint - do you think it's improvement vs where you are now?

There is not a single fully thought through and workable policy so far apart from redistribution.

Absolutely!

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 04/09/2024 14:27

They won’t . But you won’t be allowed to point it out, because that will be ‘hate speech’ and you will be banged up.

So then everything will be as good as possible in the best of all possible worlds.

StarDolphins · 04/09/2024 14:30

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 04/09/2024 14:27

They won’t . But you won’t be allowed to point it out, because that will be ‘hate speech’ and you will be banged up.

So then everything will be as good as possible in the best of all possible worlds.

Or racist or a Tory bot!

Spinet · 04/09/2024 14:37

Tryingtokeepgoing · 04/09/2024 13:32

That’s certainly one left leaning and red tinted spin on life 😂

I understand you had a particularly good set of experiences during the heady days of the late 90s early 00s, presumably as a result of where you were in your life at the time. But at a macroeconomic and geopolitical level history hasn’t judged that period kindly, on the global stage.

Parking ones biases, once could say that the housing crisis has been fuelled by a planning system not fit for purpose, a culturally NIMBYism against any development, and a failure of every government for the last 50 years to invest in social housing. Our economy is actually performing better than most in Europe, and getting out of dying industries like mining and steel and into to services, automotive, and biotech was a master stroke really. The UK economy has attracted more inward investment over an extended period of time than many. BREXIT was an own goal, but that Cameron’s fault for calling a a referendum without a plan, and Corbyn / Starmers fault for not wanting (former) or being capable of (latter) to run an effective ‘Remain’ campaign

Privatisation of phones, gas, electricity and rail improved customer service and lowered cost to consumers. Privatising water was short sighted, and regulation under every government since has been woeful.

Then of course there’s the matter of the lies and the wars, and the waste of life that resulted from them. Not to mention the years of tawdry spin, the loan scandals, the unreported gifts end the complete milking of MPs expense by all parties.

It’s just as easy to put a similarly blue tinted right leaning spin on 13 years of Labour government, but these entrenched party political positions don’t actually help the country, or encourage reasonable debate that might engage people.

One could easily say that 13 years of Labour managed to destroy private sector pensions. They created a low skills / low wage / benefit dependent economy destroying aspiration and hope for generations of graduates. They kneecapped the NHS by saddling it with debt that it has taken 2 generations to pay back. Their completely short term policy of appeasement meant that no long term plans existed for future healthcare delivery. They did the same with education. And the coalition and Tory governments didn’t improve things.

However, I’m not wedded to either ideology…I just see on both sides of the House of Commons being made up mostly of a bunch of slightly well meaning, slightly dim, and slightly ineffective politicians with the common sense and debating skills of a student union representative.

To give her her credit, Thatcher had an unerring believe that she was doing the right thing for the country, and as a result was willing to take tough decisions. Maybe Starmer is the same. And, looking at our economy in the 20 years after, she was probably right. Life in the UK was grim in the 10 or so years before. History judges her accordingly.

Bliar never really had any convictions. History has him down for the con man he was.
Brown had convictions but no political nouse whatsoever. History has forgotten him.
Major understood the role, and just stuck to the day job. History judges him more kindly by the day.
Osborne was competent, but overly confident. The referendum shows that. He’ll be judged forever on that decision.

May was ernest but forgettable. She was fundamentally a good person though.
Truss was a joke and history will forever laugh at her
Johnson winged it, and like all who do , some things worked and somethings didn’t. History will be pleased that Corbyn wasn’t in charge during a pandemic, and will judge Johnson as a shyster.
Sunak is also a bright, competent man who must have had a drive for public service. He certainly didn’t need the money. But as the last act in a dying Tory government he was always doomed.

Starmer? Too early to say. Autocratic? Probably - people who are out of their depth often are initially, until they grow into the role. A technocratic leader - yes. But that doesn’t bring people with you. Has he got a long term plan? Yes. Will he be honest with people and tell them what it is? No…because the default position for the left of centre elite has always been - we know best, you don’t need to know the details. Trust us. We are right.

We get the politics, and the politicians, we deserve.

Very interesting post. I would really like to see a bit more evidence backing up what you say though. The public attitudes you assert towards previous PMs is illustrated where and how? That services and costs improved for customers when the railways and power were privatised - evidence please?

You write your opinion very seductively but if you don't back up your argument you're basically saying 'trust me. I am right' just like you're claiming the politicians do and not parking any biases at all.

Tryingtokeepgoing · 04/09/2024 15:05

@Spinet thank you. But as this is a discussion forum I didn’t cross reference every data set out there since I am not attempting to submit a dissertation on the subject :)

However, the following wiki page gives a pretty balanced overview of the performance of rail under privatisation. At the fares level, season ticket prices up a bit, advance purchases ticket prices down quite a lot, investment up massively, safety improved (150 fewer dead than if pre privatisation trend continued) Profits up, passenger numbers up, safety up, fares down, stations cleaner/newer, rolling stock newer. As a passenger, I prefer the new way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_the_privatisation_of_British_Rail

Likewise, if we look at BT one used to have to wait months of even years for a new phone connection…now it’s a matter of days or, if no connection existed before, maybe weeks. And you can choose from any number of suppliers. You didn’t even get much choice in the actual handset in the 70s!

Now, many private business invest billions every year in networks that provide infinitely better coverage and a wide range of hardware for consumers to chose from. And, back in the day, you paid by the second/minute for every call (remember waiting until after 6 because it was cheaper?). Today everything is broadly thrown in in an all you can eat way. I know which I prefer, and which has created the massive growth in the UK telecoms and associated tech sectors.

On the public’s perception of past PMs, the attached ranking is interesting, and broadly correlates with my (slightly tongue in cheek - apologies if that didn’t come across - but broadly aligned with public opinion as reported)

https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/british-public-say-churchill-followed-thatcher-did-best-job-prime-minister

Impact of the privatisation of British Rail - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_the_privatisation_of_British_Rail

caringcarer · 04/09/2024 15:12

I think they are already getting worse.

Rummly · 04/09/2024 15:15

Likewise, if we look at BT one used to have to wait months of even years for a new phone connection…now it’s a matter of days or, if no connection existed before, maybe weeks. And you can choose from any number of suppliers. You didn’t even get much choice in the actual handset in the 70s!

I may be wrong, but, if memory serves, under nationalised BT/GPO the customer didn’t own the phone. It was licensed. We were all licensees. Incredible to think of it now.

And do you remember the funny little stripy tents that used to appear over telephone manhole covers? They used to stay there for days while the engineers - carefully demarcated and segregated by union imposed role - used to drink tea.