The Westminster Arms

[DustyDiamond]

Shiny new thread 😍😍

The Westminster Arms:
A non-partisan politics pub-thread for varied political chit-chat & other such stuff

Cheers all 🍷

That breakfast will set us up for the day as we wend our way home from London, thank you Singing.

Hope you had a productive and encouraging time at the WPUK meeting, MrsSnippy! Safe journey home.

Morning, Ommmward

I’ve been thinking about a question Walking asked: “why some British people are just so OK with giving away our fishing rights”.

It’s part of a wider malaise, isn’t it? There are some people - very few, I think, but very vocal - who boil with rage about the EU, about the Evil Tories, about what they perceive as the “Little Englander” thinking of their neighbours and who express their hatred by wishing harm on their own country and their fellow citizens.

They come across as quite unhinged. No sane person wants their own country to be reduced to destitution just to prove a point. That’s disordered thinking.

When I was in the police many years ago, such people poured out their bile in letters usually written in green ink, often with lots of capitals and demented underlining. They were known as File 13 correspondents: File 13 being the wastepaper bin and the only suitable receptacle for their efforts. Unfortunately, the digital age - a boon in so many ways - also gives File 13 correspondents greater reach as well as the means to connect with each other.

I did relay some time ago an excerpt from Tim Shipman’s book, All Out War, in which he quotes a (wisely anonymous) Labour MP. “There are always going to be 500,000 people in this country who are off-the-page nuts,” the MP sighed. “The problem we’ve got is that they have all joined the Labour party to vote for Jeremy Corbyn.”

Part of that is pure hyperbole, of course: I absolutely do not believe that all Labour Party members are off-the-page nuts. In fact, the debates going on in other threads show clearly that many decent Labour supporters are agonising about the leadership contest and hoping that good sense will prevail.

However, the Labour MP probably wasn’t far off with his estimate of the total number of off-the-page nuts all over the country. They’ve always been around, searching for a cause, looking for a way to get themselves noticed. Even if the only way they can do that is by being obnoxious. And yes, even in prisons, even among the most heinous of criminals, there is a hierarchy, a scramble to be at the top of an imaginary heap by being the most horrible. It’s crazy. But it’s how things are and always have been.

I soon learned that what such people crave is validation. They have such poor self-esteem that the only way they know how to get attention, even of the negative variety, is by being a right royal PITA. And the only way to deal with that is quite simple - don’t engage. Just ignore. They are desperate for validation so if they don’t get it in one place, they’ll move on somewhere else.

Well, that was a metaphorical wander down Memory Lane, wasn’t it? All sparked off by a very reasonable question from Walking. I just thought I’d share.

why some British people are just so OK with giving away our fishing rights

Isn't the problem rather that the UK government sold off fishing quotas and now it's a bloody headache to sort out?

Thank you for those thoughts too, lily. I keep thinking of something Brendan O'Neill keeps saying (I know he's marmite): he keeps quoting George Orwell about the national self-loathing of the English intellectual class, which translates into a pro European stance. "England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality."

Well, they'd better take some aspirin and get on with it, songs 🙂

I'm really really cheered by the insistence that a trade deal with the EU will be just one of many we are negotiating. Partly because it massively strengthens our hand (wasn't that one of Boris's things he sorted in September? That the UK would be allowed to pursue trade negotiations with other countries at the same time as with the EU?) And also because anything that undermines the power of the (relatively) rich protectionist club of countries in the northern hemisphere is a Good Thing in terms of global equality.

Isn't the problem rather that the UK government sold off fishing quotas and now it's a bloody headache to sort out?

Apparently not, Songs. The London Fisheries Convention, which preceded the CFP, was ended by the UK on 2 July 2019.

" The convention can be denounced from 20 years of its entry into force after a two years' notice.[2]

On 2 July 2017 the United Kingdom Government announced that it would withdraw from the Fisheries Convention.[5][6][7][8] Formal notice of the "denunciation" was given the next day, 3 July 2017."

The CFP no longer applies now we've left but there is a transitional arrangement in the Withdrawal Act. That expires on 31 December 2020 of course.

Love Brendan O'Neill, Ommward. I don't agree with everything he says but I love his clarity of thought and expression. Same for Claire Fox. Some of her views make me shudder but she is consistent in her logic.

Morning everyone and thanks for the breakfast yet again Singing.that should keep me going all day.

I certainly think Boris will stick to his guns.
You only have to reflect on the speed with which he threw all the rebels out of the Party. Philip Hammond claimed "it is my Party".
Not any more, mate.
And he got Brexit done.
He won't give in. Why should he. He has most of the country behind him.

The thing about Fishing that bothers me is this:
The naysayers on the one hand claim that the fishing industry is SO insignificant to the UK economy that no responsible Govt should bother quibbling over it while otoh claiming it is such a big deal to the much larger EU economy that they will dig their heels in.

The issue was that we rolled our fishing waters into the EU and so they became part of a joint negotiation done on our behalf by the whole EU. Now we have left it will be up to the UK to negotiate access to our waters. The UK fleet and harbour and processing facilities are too small to fish it all ourselves but that may well change. Seaside towns are some of the most in need of reinvestment and so this is definitely an opportunity to rebalance.

Morning everyone

Thanks for the article Singing, really helpful.

Hopefully I'm not one of those histrionic Labour voters... I don't think I am? I do recognise that almost unhinged thinking pattern though - it's very prevalent on these threads.

Just going to get myself a veggie breakfast and a nice strong coffee... luvvly

Assume kedgeree is on the menu.

And kippers.

I love kippers. Mmmm.

It's a conundrum, Howabout. I think, though, it's all part of a desperate rearguard action by those who just can't accept that we have left. We have to give them time. As a SW resident and the granddaughter of a fisherman, I'd be delighted to see our fishing industry revive. The knowledge hasn't gone away.

In other news...

ClassicDom from The Times:

"At a party in 10 Downing Street, as the 11pm deadline passed, the assistant to the prime minister and the most feared man in government took to the microphone wearing tracksuit bottoms and black trainers and was lost for words as emotion overcame him. The man once branded “a career psychopath” by David Cameron, clutched a hand across his face and sought to compose himself. Eventually, he managed to say: “Lots of people in this room know what happened. Thank you.”

More ClassicDom, from the Mail on Sunday:

"At a meeting at Downing Street on Friday, Mr Cummings told his staff: 'The people's government doesn't take any favours. No coffees, no lunches, no drinks. Especially not with journalists’…a reshuffle is expected within the next fortnight but there is not due to be a major upheaval of Mr Johnson's most senior Ministers. Mr Javid, Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab, Home Secretary Priti Patel, Defence Secretary Ben Wallace and Cabinet Office Minister Michael Gove are all said to be safe"

And a final bit of ClassicDom from The Times:

"Claire Perry O'Neill took on the job [Climate Change Committee Chair] after leaving parlianent at the election but was informed that her services were no longer required in a telephone conversation with Dominic Cummings, Johnson’s most senior aide, on Friday."

Two thoughts...the plans for the reshuffle are already being implemented. And I'm bloody relieved that ClassicDom is not a Corbynista.

Just caught up
Thank you for breakfast and the article Lily. Proper set me up for the day.

When even Blair is saying - given we've left we should do it properly and not stay aligned it is difficult to understand where those still arguing for Norway + are coming from.

From the newspaper reviews last night there does seem to be a realisation that a deal will get done by 31 December. The new triangulation is that if it doesn't have everything in it which would make it equivalent to having stayed in the EU it won't be "comprehensive" - rather reminiscent of Sir Static and his 6 tests.

I think the long game is probably to let them carry on thinking we haven't really left until over time they realise that having left it makes very little difference to them. At which point they will claim victory.

Morning all!

Great sunday read and summary Lily, thank you!

I’m VERY happy with these red lines, Arf at the EU bully boy tactics once again...no dice thanks. Either play fair, or pass the paracetamol so we can move on with the No-Deal headache asap imo. Good on Boris, let’s hope he keeps it up, it’s weird isn’t it, the perspective of just being ‘another’ country negotiating a trade deal with the EU, really hammers home how ludicrous it is, that they expect all these concessions from us that other countries do not have to adhere to. I think the appropriate MN term here, would be ‘EU dear, are you on glue?’ 😂

And this....
“They come across as quite unhinged. No sane person wants their own country to be reduced to destitution just to prove a point. That’s disordered thinking.” This gave me a big ole LOL and a fervent nodding of the head Lily. You are on top form today! 🙌

Claire Perry has always irritated me.
I wonder if she was offered the COP role to persuade her not to stand in the election?

Thank you Lily, just a bit of scrambled on toast for me.

Epic I think it was Katya who remarked that up until now the EU actually believed all the people from the UK (including Eeyore and half TM's cabinet) saying we only wanted BRINO and viewed any other outcome as sub-optimal (I strongly suspect this was why Davis, Raab et al resigned).

This is why they are having trouble adjusting. It's a bit like when you have someone trying to pay you more and more attention to win you over because they haven't twigged you are just not into them. (Valentines approaching and I told DDs I never bother with it because too many memories of unwanted admirers - just as well as part of DH's charm is his complete inability to do romance).

Good job the Arms has a good supply of zoflora or borax if kippers are on the menu. Whenever I make them for DH the smell lingers for days.

Morning all. I'm trying to plough my way through all the very interesting posts on here, with one ear on Andrew Marr. AM just asked Tusk about his 'special place in hell' comment, and was it reserved for people like Boris? He replied no, but as a Catholic he should observe the Pope's thoughts, that hell is empty (my interpretation not actual words). .

John McDonnell has given his usual jocular 'I'm so Mr Sensible' round up of what needs putting straight in the political world blah blah Becky, blah blah Richard Burgon blah blah.

Lily It's like sitting in a bar surrounded by the quality Sunday papers, with a lovely breakfast, thank you. Our LL knew what she was doing when she chose a multi talented, diplomatic catering manager. I haven't read your longest post yet so I'd better arm myself with another flat white from phwoar Dom's marvellous machine.

Btw @XingMing I totally forgot to congratulate your DC on their Uni Offer! Well done! Amazing news. 🎉🎉🥳

I think it was Philippa Gregory that Starkey was rude to, as he doesn't like her brand of historical fiction.

Trade deals...stuff to be signed with Switzerland in March and soonish with other EFTA countries.

😂Howabout.

"We're just not into EU".

I love ClassicDom's use of the phrase "the people's government". It sums up a complete political outlook in one of his classic three word slogans and drums home a central message. The man's a genius.

Btw, all breakfast preferences catered for.