The Westminster Arms

[DustyDiamond]

As requested, I have contacted MNHQ via the contact provided in the deletion message

Welcome to The Westminster Arms!

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A non-partisan politics pub thread for political chit chat....!!

Please stick within MN talk guidelines - any posts which you think may have crossed the line, please report rather than getting into scraps on thread 😠

Political punch-ups are soooo last decade - ain't nobody got time for that 🥊❌

Be nice! Be respectful!

S'ok to slag off politicians, but not other posters 🍻

Another (recent) Tory here Silvery

Coppersulphate
"I don't remember LangCleg? Can anyone remind me or is that also against MN rules"

LangCleg is an absolute legend on the FWR board due to her expertise in safeguarding. Some people don't want women to talk about safeguarding, and appear to have succeeded in having her banned. Almost 1000 posts on a thread about it now on FWR.

Most of my village is openly Tory although there are a few real socialists and a couple of card carrying libdems. It all works well and we are a very friendly place.
We rarely talk politics though.

I think Brexit was a clear line. People were/ are more entrenched over that than over other issues in politics.

Most people agree we need to sort the housing crisis, homelessness and the NHS.
We may disagree how it's done but Brexit is more fundamental. It is either in or out. So very little to discuss. In my village at least.

Did anyone notice, during PMQ's, the prime minister's refusal to use the words women, or girls on the 'period poverty' question??

I didn't notice that. Isn't it rather obvious period products are for women/girls? Did it need to be said?

I've just watched on iplayer - he referred to young persons - don't see a problem with that.

“Did anyone notice, during PMQ's, the prime minister's refusal to use the words women, or girls on the 'period poverty' question?”

Yes, I did. And I wasn’t keen... hoping it was just an error.

But he also said made available for everyone in the country (which made me chuckle), which makes no sense at all, so may just have been an unintentional error.

MY DH definitely doesn’t need them, neither does my DS. 😂😂😂😂

“I didn't notice that. Isn't it rather obvious period products are for women/girls? Did it need to be said?”

I think FWR explain this whole topic a lot better than I ever could! So I won’t attempt it here. It’s a ‘potential’ problem with an ongoing and subtle erasure of important language descriptors though. That said, again, I’m running with unintentional error unless I see more of it.

Nor do I.... anymore. There's not a lot in favour of being post menopause but I don't miss the bleeding. It's one of the things I usually put into food banks, plus toothbrushes.

Epic - But he also said made available for everyone in the country

I'm not sure but wasn't that referring to scrapping VAT on sanpro? I was only half listening though.

Yes, that’s the bit... it made me giggle because I thought, well not everyone in the country needs “period products” but fair enough! Lol. That said, obviously I am very happy at the prospect of VAT being dropped on them, what a ridiculous tax to apply. There’s no ‘Value added’ is there?

Sanpro was classed as a luxury item and therefore attracted VAT.

Disposable razors were classed as essential items and so are VAT-free.

Either it was because the VAT-setters thought that girls and women could opt in or out of the whole menstruation cycle whenever they pleased whereas men have no choice but to be clean shaven, or it was because the VAT-setters at the time were men and just didn't think it through.

I'm plumping for the latter.

It was introduced as a purchase tax in 1973, in readiness for joining the Common Market, and was then converted to VAT under CM rules. Thereafter, it was not possible to change individual VAT rates without the agreement of the whole EU.

I'm really surprised, in retrospect, that David Cameron didn't include it in his list of demands when he returned triumphantly from Brussels with his little list of reforms the EU had agreed to, just prior to the referendum.

It could have made all the difference.

The language around periods DOES matter. The Department of Education have been particularly guilty of this; only women and girls have periods and there is no reason not to use those words.
But when you see what has been going on at the DofE.......

"has championed the introduction of gender neutral toilets in the department’s Coventry, London and Nottingham offices"

www.stonewall.org.uk/people/senior-champion-year-2019-jonathan-slater

I'm obviously in the minority about this, so will go away and have a re-think.

In the meantime could I have a glass of red please to get the brain cells moving?

It’s a complex subject whatever side you fall I think Silvery. 😊 🍷

Somewhat mindboggling that anyone could regard sanpro as a luxury... or at least, anyone over the age of 10.

James Kirkup explains it well, as did George Orwell

"Because words matter, anyone engaged in any political act will seek to control and influence language. Journalism should resist and observe those attempts, not accede to them: when a politician says they will “invest” public money, that should be reported for what it is: spending. And so on."

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2020/01/was-this-journalist-sacked-for-saying-sex-is-binary/

I'm obviously in the minority about this, so will go away and have a re-think.

To be fair, I think it's one of those things that you don't see, but then once you see it you can't ever unsee it...

And then you see it everywhere

The whole sex vs identity thing is def one of the hills I'd choose to die on currently

Me too Dusty and it is exactly as you say.

One of the reasons I was so relieved that the Conservatives got a large majority was that perhaps we could now not be consumed by Brexit and find some space to discuss other issues.

And this issue, the rights of women and girls, is immensely important to me and many other women (and would be immensely important to a lot of other people if they were actually made aware of what is going on).

I am aware of the sex v identity issue currently raging and sick at the invasion of women's safe spaces and the whole trans issue when it impacts on real women.

I still don't think Boris has committed a heinous crime. If he was talking about vasectomies, for example, would you feel the same if he didn't use the words men?

I've poured myself another red and still pondering.

I think it's the suspicion that starts brewing Silvery - like with Brexit

You start to become highly tuned towards the specifics of the language is being used & suspicious if someone says something a bit ambiguous

So - is BJ deliberately not saying 'women and girls' or does he simply just not think it needed to be explicitly said...?

I'd like to think the latter, but in the current climate I'm quite often highly suspicious & alert to it

“I still don't think Boris has committed a heinous crime. If he was talking about vasectomies, for example, would you feel the same if he didn't use the words men?”

Well, it would certainly have been odd, if he had said that vasectomies will be available for everyone in the country... 😂😂😂

That said, I don’t think anyone was suggesting a ‘crime’ or even that it WAS deliberate, but when it’s been deliberately and subtly applied in other places, by other influential people then I guess it’s not a giant leap to at least ‘wonder’ if it was a deliberate omission. I suppose you see it more when you know about it, as per dusty’s earlier comment. I’m not sure either way. I think it could have been accidental, and as Boris doesn’t strike me as the type to subscribe to identity politics (in that way) then I would err toward it not being intentional. I will look out for it going forward though.

Dear god, apologies for my over use of ‘deliberate’... 😂