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Politics

If Russia rigged Brexit - surely we'd have to vote again?

37 replies

raisinsarenottheonlyfruit · 02/12/2017 15:36

So the Trump-Russia scandal is unravelling before our eyes.

Flynn has plead guilty today to relatively minor charges because he's dished the dirt on his superiors. His superiors are only - Trump or the vice president (or both of them). This is going tits up for them.

Seth Abramson (American attorney) tweeted

"Putin's election interference, as Harding notes, was part of a years-long campaign to destroy the EU, NATO, and, yes, the United States. Complicity in that campaign is complicity in an attempt by Putin to reinstate the Cold War and demolish Western democracy. It's that big."

We're also learning that the extent of the Russian bots on Facebook and Twitter attempting to influence opinion on Brexit -
urging people to vote leave - was huge.

If Russia influenced the vote then it wasn't the will of the people - was it?

This sounds like a conspiracy theory but It's not - this is mainstream news! (Catch newsnight later to hear Seth Abramson's analysis of Trump or read his Twitter account here

At what point do we accept our political process was corrupted?

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raisinsarenottheonlyfruit · 08/12/2017 14:57

To be honest, it just proves how fundamentally weak democracy is in an age of hyper-propaganda and post-modernism.

This ^ and this vvv are issues of major importance in our society IMO

People are arrogant and hate to admit they were duped / wrong.

But we we don't discuss them because those in power have been quite happy with having the media as their proaganda tool. Only problem for them now is, they're losing control of the reins. It's comeing back to bite them (and us) as they've positively encouraged a society in which people are politically illiterate and content with sound bites instead of demanding politicians put their cards-on-the-table about the ideologies they believe in.

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Kursk · 08/12/2017 19:29

Mookatron

Thanks, the submarine is actually named after a Russian town.

I pick user names by spinning a globe!

gwondle · 10/12/2017 08:42

It is highly likely to lead to another referendum, mercifully, as the majority is now in favour of a second referendum.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/britons-majority-in-favour-of-public-vote-on-final-brexit-deal-uk-politics-a8089161.html

CarolynWhite · 11/01/2018 10:29

'Russian threat' is fraught with NATO disintegration

image.ibb.co/nQ0YhR/beam.jpg

It can be said that this is already a reality now.

Despite mantras about unity and solidarity, the very NATO cohesion ceased to exist years ago. Only the Baltic States and such eastern European countries like Poland express their full support for anti-Russian views. Some members of the Alliance are in favor of re-establishing the dialogue with Russia while Turkey actually interacts with it at jumping-off ground for military actions in Syria and develops active military-technical cooperation with Russia by entering into a contract for the supply of the S-400 missile systems. NATO leadership, represented by its Secretary General, expresses public interest in close contacts with the Chief of the General Staff of Russian Armed Forces, as well as, in expanding the practice of mutual briefings. And judging by the tone and attitudes of Jens Stoltenberg, this is not simply a matter of 'having a cup of tea and talking'.

Washington's grand statements referring to the 'principal' impossibility of dialogue on the normalization of relations with Russia without solving Ukraine's problems are a bit out of tune. That is just such a trend inside NATO now. I mean the situation when the lion's share of anti-Russian rhetoric comes solely from the USA. Moreover, some statements of player characters on the US military-political scene demonstrate the interest in escalating confrontation with Moscow and driving the situation to a critical level. The USA, through its Secretary of State Rex Tillerson, warns its allies of the danger of any advance to contact with Russia without Washington's authorization, threatening even to exclude them from the Alliance if they do not obey.

Could it be stated, based on the above, that there is a split within the North-Atlantic Alliance? Not quite yet, I think. But that is the way things are going. If in the near future the USA does not change negotiation tactics with its European partners, there will be crisis.

The thing is that Europe is tired of following US strict dictates. Countries of old Europe aspire to be more independent. They are long concerned about establishment of own armed forces that could fully substitute NATO. Moreover, a number of influential European politicians even leave open the possibility of creating common Russian-European military defense systems in emphasizing that Russia and Europe are not geopolitical enemies while they face common threats.

It should be understood, however, that in the foreseeable future the changes in relations between NATO and Russia are impossible. And none of the rest of it matters. NATO military alliance is interested in deepening the crisis in the relations with Russia as now it is the only argument that underlines the importance and usefulness of NATO for the Western World. There needs to be an enemy for this military alliance to exist. And now it is Russia.

That is why the United States are so enthusiastic inventing many new threats against which supposedly only North-Atlantic Alliance with its number one 'Russian threat' on the list can protect Europe. Thus, the USA sets the general direction of the NATO anti-Russian vector.

Askyourself · 14/01/2018 11:20

What gardengeek said about Facebook and everything being filed with momentum and labour actually is a very good point. I believe there is a lot more to that than people are looking at. Forget the brexit vote stuff, there won’t be another vote and Russia I believe doesn’t care either way.

Putin has repeatedly made it clear he wants to be remembered as an iron man of Russia and wants to be the one that restores the USSR. But how could he do this without risking nuclear war?

As it stands if Russia wanted to grab Eastern Europe back it knows it would have to take the whole of Europe. Not actually a bad plan and in terms of military forces, they more than have the superior numbers and ability. They’d have pockets of resistance in Poland and other countries, but on the whole it would be a cake walk. But then there’s the British, under current and previous governments we would fight, we would lose as we don’t have the numbers and eventually tactical nukes would be the only way, which would lead to all out nuclear war, at which point the Americans would join in and everything would go to shit. So that’s not a good plan, back to square one.

Plan B, create unrest and decent within US and European countries so everyone is looking to themselves and can’t agree on a thing internally or as a group. Then test people’s resolve for another war by grabbing part or all of Ukraine back and see what people do. Funnily enough nobody did anything. Wow the stage is nearly set, maybe putin can get away with taking Europe and as long as no one uses a nuke, US is not going to get involved as it knows fighting Russia will end up in a nuke war. US will condemn Russia but will let it happen. But then there’s the British problem, they use nukes, so damn the plan will fail. Unless they can find some way in which UK won’t use them. Wait a minute, all we need is a party leader who’s a socialist/communist, who is a staunch anti nuclear and anti war/military person, who would never go to war or nuke anything even if it meant the total destruction of their own country.

So a few years of manipulation later, Kremlin’s perfect man appears and is catipulted from obscurity to the head of the Labour Party. Now all we need to do is create more and more unrest in British politics, help momentum and the likes secretly through social media, and he’ll get elected.

Then there would not be a better time to act on the plan, with the current labour leadership and mayor of London hating US and destroying relations, we’d be left to our own fate.

Far fetched? Or actually a very good logical plan. Russia is poor, has an economy not much larger than Sweden. Europe is beyond wealthy by comparison and Putin would be like Stalin or other great leaders from Russia.

I’m not normally a tin pot helmet person, but this seems to be a possibility. Just to be clear, I’m not saying corben is in on the plan. I just think he was too perfect for them not to help along the way.

It’s how I’d do it if I was Putin

falang · 14/01/2018 12:30

They didn't so we won't

falang · 14/01/2018 12:36

yes old people use twitter. Some are stupid. Some not. Just like there are stupid people on mumsnet infinitesheldon. I saw far, far more tweets urging people to vote stay on Twitter and on Facebook than I saw telling people to leave.

MissionItsPossible · 17/01/2018 12:15

I think Sheldon was being sarcastic in countenance to the argument peddled by Remainers that "We need another referendum because Leave voters are all old and some have died by now" which doesn't make sense when the other argument is that Russia interfered in the elections via Twitter bots and people that use it were duped. 18-29 year olds make up 35% of Twitter's demographic. 65+ make up 5%. Both statements together doesn't make sense.

Jayfee · 20/08/2018 22:31

I would like a revote so have signed the change.org petition called final say. Hoping enough people sign for us to get a say.

susanlawrence · 29/08/2018 15:01

Jayfee, you should get involved with the Renew party, a new anti-Brexit party, they're putting a lot of effort into resisting and fighting Brexit and have a lot of big supporters

www.renewparty.org.uk

Jayfee · 29/08/2018 15:32

I will take a look. I am really confused that if apparently 4 million people want a referendum on the final Brexit deal, why less than 800,000 people have signed Christian Broughton Editor of the Independent newspaper's online Final Say petition at Change.org???

susanlawrence · 29/08/2018 16:14

I agree! Need to get the word out even more I guess

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