Catalexit

[Spinflight]

Quite a bun fight brewing in Spain..

The Catalonian government has passed laws and whatnot to hold a referendum on becoming independent on the 1st of October.

Which is rather awkward, as the Spanish government, the EU and various other bodies say that to do so, even to hold a vote, would be illegal.

Course there's lots of opinion polls, which naturally are all over the place.

The only thing they conclusively show is that the Catalans want a binding vote.

Whilst this is quite rightly an internal matter, were they to vote out ( which incidentally would put them out of the EU) should we support their wishes?

Surely the right to self determination trumps all other concerns, though it has to be said that we would really, really annoy Spain and the EU in doing so.

Interesting times, as ever. What are your thoughts?

Southlondondaddy, heres the Guardian piece. Ill explain why this, seemingly negligible 3 para item, almost single handedly brings down a continent.

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/08/catalonia-demo-injuries-fact-checking

This piece by the Guardian, went viral within seconds. It was picked up by international news agencies within minutes, and various forms of it were then regurgitated across the globe, and is still viral across Twitter. (Guardian editors rubbing their hands with glee) Whats wrong with that, you may say.

Heres the WashPo follow on piece.

www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/10/19/how-fake-news-helped-shape-the-catalonia-independence-vote/?utm_term=.b6e06ff5949a

Firstly, the Guardians headline and the content, arent accurate. They arent accurate because the Guardian failed to verify what actual injuries there were. They failed to report on verifiable facts, or make any attempt to verify actual injury numbers, prefering dismissing the entire question of 'violence' as 'possible' fake news. Did some 'false flag' muppet on twitter attempt to undermine and minimise the the actions of the Spanish police? Who knows? Heavens what a suggestion. The Guardian certainly didnt know the source.

"With fake news apparently leaking from every media orifice...." says the Guardian, except theirs one assumes. They have regurgitated a tactic indeed used in the Brexit debate. The side they want to discredit, is fuelled by fake news. Its a purely political stance.

In Brexit, they ignore, that the Government were pro-remain. They sent a leaflet to every household laying out their reasons to support remain and stay in the single market. Every household. The cost of that campaign was millions. The highest, most influential man in the country, the Prime Minister, very publicly stood on a platform of remain.

The media then decide the vote was lost, on 'fake' news. The wonderful, unverifiable ascertion that stupid people believed fake facts, (whatever they may be) 17 million of them. The verifiable truth is, 17 million read the governments leaflet, heard David Cameron, and voted anyway.

I for example, followed events really closely across various media sources, on the day of the Catalan referendum. I never saw any mention or viral promotion of say the bloke in the yellow t-shirt. This supposed 'fake news' event, supposedly impacted the views of international communities. Yellow t-shirt bloke wasnt amongst the thousands of pictures I saw coming out of Catalonia at the time. Who and where, was a 6 year old boy paralysed? Fake news of fake news? Who knows. All I know, is that today the Guardian tell me my view, my personal view, is skewed by something I know I didnt see.

Now multiply my bemusement, by several billion on the planet, who like me, didnt see what the Guardian are reporting on, but did see live events. The Guardian says Im wrong. The Guardian says Im a member of the sheep community, who have formed an inaccurate view. In short, the Guardian says it didnt happen, and my view is the wrong view.

So what if the Guardian had indeed written this piece accurately, without political bias.

"Headline: 3 Spanish Social media items, proven to be false" . Wheres the political statement in that? Wheres the syndicate value in that? There is none. Indeed, the article specifically omits even linking to the offending items. Perhaps because they were in Spanish and I dont speak spanish, so the whole 'youve been led' argument crumbles anyway?

I did witness the following. Live on Sky, rubber projectiles /bullets being fired at citizens turning out to vote (and the Sky reporter). I did witness live assaults by police on unarmed civilians, turning out to vote. The world watched as young, old and disabled, turned out to vote and were met by state police and violence. I did witness the BBCs version of these events as 'a bit of jostling', whilst rubber bullets flew.

Catalonians do indeed have a Catalan TV channel. TV3. To even imply that voters, are motivated by fake news in Catalonia, ignores the verifiable fact that 87% of their TV is Spanish, and 100% of Catalans speak Spanish.

The Guardians desire, to imply, well if there was a bit of violence, it wasnt serious violence, no one really got hurt that much, shifts the worlds view on the media and The Guardian, because quite simply its untrue by omission. We all witnessed what happened on that day.

When you then discuss 'state media', 'state fascism', propoganda, we only have one source that shows us this is now in our town, and at our doors. Guardian articles like this one, that tell me Im the liar, that I didnt see what I saw. This is what is bringing down Europe.

They say its sunny outside on my street. I step out, get rained on and wet, and am then belittled, ridiculed and called out as a liar. The Guardian are calling millions liars, for what reason? The answer can only be a political one.

"what some companies have done is to move their registered address away from Catalonia."

Correct Cdtaylornats, and in some cases, that has meant a phone and a desk has been moved from one office in Madrid across a corridor.

Spin is indeed refering to a bank run, and we are indeed watching this space.

Well said Caroline.

Strange that a daddy in south London came out with the fake news line almost a week before the gutter press press started claiming it, no?

Over 1000 injuries, 85% of them being bruises or lesions caused by police batons. A handful on under 11 year olds and a couple of dozen on pensioners.

All inflicted on a peaceful populace by a police force that had no constitutional right to be there. The Catalan's own police force, the Mossos, were illegally put under the command of Madrid.

Bit pointless listing the treaties and fundamental rights abused, as you'd expect the list is a long one and includes swathes of Spain's own constitution.

But the videos I linked to are fake news....

Whilst I thought this dystopian bastardry of a high order I've been forced to change my mind. It's dystopian muppetry of such a low class as to bemuse the senses. Stupid is as stupid does. To not understand or comprehend it is healthy I think, just as to not understand the motivations of evil is.

Whilst the moral and democratic turpitude is obvious, it's worth considering the other side of the coin. The sheer desperation inherent , the furtive scrambling for legitimacy when it has clearly and irrevocably been lost.

Whilst this may outwardly look like a revolt against Spain's latent fascism, it is also a result of the Spanish collectives acceptance of EU policies closely resembling colonialism. When governments act against the people's interests they lose legitimacy, weaken and apparently resort to authoritarian measures.

There is a strong argument that Western Europe's supposed values were an attempt to differentiate between the authoritarian Communist rule in the east of Europe and their own, without much in the way of historical precedent or culture to back them up. Rather than a new shocking development one could see it merely as a reversion to type. Franco, the last dictator to hold power in Western Europe, died on the same day as the leader of the Falange in 1975.

It seems their ghosts were never exorcised.

@Spinflight, you posted a video titled something like: Spanish police rape woman.
AFAIK there is no proof whatsoever that Spanish police raped a woman during the Catalan referendum; indeed, AFAIK no media has reported this. Care to elaborate?

You also posted about Spanish police allegedly breaking a woman's fingers one by one. I showed you that the same lady went on national TV to explain she had an inflammation but that no, the nasty naught evil fascist oppressive Spanish cops did not break her fingers, let alone "one by one".

Yet you still refuse to admit that you posted fake news???

I am speechless. You are beyond delusional. You need professional help.

"I am speechless. You are beyond delusional. You need professional help."

And the Bus!!!! What about the Bus!!!!!! You know you voted because of a bus!!!!!!!

Muppet.

Lol.

Oh, I see, so those who debunk fake news are muppets. Makes perfect sense.

I guess we'll never know how many people voted because of a bus, but we do know that the bus was a big lie, and that not many in the Brexit campaign deemed it appropriate to point that out.

The Guardian article mentioned some fake news, including that about police breaking a woman's fingers, and recommended caution in interpreting unsubstantiated news. What's to argue? What's to disagree? Maybe non-muppets can enlighten me.

Muppetry, southlondondaddy, is the ability to utterly ignore whats actually happening.

Spin, that made the hairs on my arms stand up. Is it fake?

Well, posting fake news and refusing to admit it fits that definition just perfectly.

Couple of interesting articles on the influences on separatism in Catalonia and elsewhere and how Assange fits into the English speaking reporting on it.
www.byline.com/column/67/article/1903
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/global-separatist-groups-meet-up-in-moscow-but-no-one-criticises-russia-10510344.html
(2 year old article, but even more relevant now)
Had the upsetting experience of agreeing with George Galloway on talk radio about it, he interviewed Mathew Bennet who's got some great posts on Spain and Catalonia.
drive.google.com/file/d/0ByM82hAkEVNQT0VvM0tHYjNFdDQ/view

Ah, its the Russians. Assange is a Russian mole (hes not in the Estonian embassy is he?!) Wikileaks, is a hot bed of mis-information (though it hasnt got a single thing wrong, ever) and George....I didnt listen too.

Spin, Ive been musing on your dystopian muppetry, and tieing into the 'fake news' bun fight (see what Im doing here ) this was a classic last month, that I think youll like.

The most unhealthy country in the world is the Czech Republic, the healthiest, Afghanistan.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/the-czech-republic-is-the-most-unhealthy-country-in-the-world-according-to-a-new-study-a3643601.html

Subsequently, some anti-muppetry thinking was applied by the Spectator.

Life expectancy in Afghanistan, 61 years. In the Czech Republic, 79.

The adult mortality rate Afghanistan 260 per 1,000 people.
Czech Republic, it is 84 per 1,000 people.

The infant mortality rate Afghanistan is 6.6 per cent. Czech Republic, it is 0.3 per cent

http://www.who.int/gho/countries

However, it reached new highs this week (obviously Catalonia apart) This week the WHO announced Mugabe as their Goodwill ambassador. I havent a clue what rationale the WHO used to come to that decision, but clearly muppetry has seriously infiltrated every upper echelon of civilised society.

Its not some right wing revolution we're seeing on our streets, youre right Spin, its a peoples revolution against dystopian muppetry of the highest order, and the followers it creates. (see Russian conspiracy

Did you pick up the Czech elections this weekend? Working hours have never been so long, pay so low, personal debt so high, and the populist parties romped home. "But but but!" they cry, "How could this be! the economy's booming! We tell them its great, every single day!" Muppets.

Dystopian muppetry? The Afghanis should be celebrating their new found health indeed.

Ha ha knew you'd say that Carolinebeanies

Nigel Farage may get more than he bargains for.
Monty Python - Execution in Russia (funny sketch!)

"Spin, that made the hairs on my arms stand up. Is it fake? grin"

Completely fake Caroline, glad you enjoyed it.

Quite why 80,000 Catalonian football fans, sorry I mean Spinflight hired actors complete with CGI and scale model of the Bernebeu, would raise the roof in such a way against Royal Madrid..

The next meeting between the two, the first since the referendum, is going to be on 20th Dec.

Could be ... spicey!

Woman1107, we like a bit of humour even in dark times, and you cant beat Monty Python. We live in a ridiculous world.

Still wont go for the Russian slant though, our great and good are more than capable of f**% things up all by themselves.

Spicey indeed Spin. This made me smile. Saturday, the day Rajoy announced his intentions of state control over Catalonia and its peoples, dissolving parliament and leaking his intention to prosecute their leaders for rebellion, the Scottish Sun decided to address the issue thats really concerning the public, with this headline.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/4736831/barcelona-la-liga/

Panic over, theyre staying in

Ahhh... That's all right then.

Oddly enough football actual has a part to play in all this. After finishing 5th in the Spanish league, which is almost unheard of, the Madrid government bought Royal Madrid's 200 metre square training ground off them.

For $400 million.

As Sir Alex Ferguson said, even the American Embassy in Knightsbridge isn't worth that much.

Their el clasico rivals Barcelona were... less than impressed. You might think no less impressed than any of the other major European clubs but... there's quite a bit of history here.

Franco supported Royal, oddly enough. After Barcelona thrashed them 3-0 in the first leg of a cup game he sent his thugs in. In the return leg Barcelona lost 11-1.

And transfers. It seems the Spanish courts upheld what was little more than a bar room joke as a pre-contract clause which saw Luis Figo, Barcelona's best player, move to Royal Madrid.

When he returned for the el clasico match the list of things that Barcelona fans threw at him doesn't bear thinking about. :)

And lots of other shenanigans over the decades. The theme of which is that the right wing and often fascist establishment supports Royal Madrid and gives them a leg up over their plucky Liberal Catalonian rivals. By fair means or foul.

Never mind the foosball, merely being in Barcelona when they beat Royal Madrid is pretty epic.

Must admit that I'm rather torn.

In the same way that I prefer good adverts to most drama ( soaps) I do have an eye for propaganda.

So trying to rate the quality of such leads me to a difficult decision; name which of the following is the superior form?

Spain's..

Or North Korea's?

Clearly the rather epic sound track on the latter gives it a clear win however if you exclude it I feel the choice becomes quite tricky...

Following as know nothing about this but couldn’t believe it when I read about the police violence on BBC.

I don’t understand - has Catalan independence been properly debated in the Spanish parliament? Surely if Catalonians want a vote they should have one, that’s what democracy is...isn’t it?

I thought the problem with the Basque movement was that, much like NI, the population is split as to what they want and the long running violence has made it hard to mediate. Catalonia is more like Scotland, is that fair to say?

Sorry obviously no one is obliged to answer my ignorant questions.

Nowt ignorant there Batteries.

Just like the SNP, Catalonians elected a party committed to independence. Who have brought it before the people.

I thought the problem with the Basque movement was that, much like NI, the population is split as to what they want and the long running violence has made it hard to mediate. Catalonia is more like Scotland, is that fair to say

The Catalonian independence movement also has a history of terrorism - there were a number of armed Catalan independence groups active between the 1970s and the 1990s, who perpetrated dozens of bombings. You won't remember them because they were less deadly and therefore less high-profile than ETA or the IRA.

The modern independence movement seems to have been more successful than ETA or the IRA in shaking off past links to terrorism. From what I have read (I make no claim to expertise) it seems that - like in Scotland - a minority of voters are genuinely committed to independence, but many more are hugely and justifiably pissed off with heavy handed behaviour by central government.

Goodness spin, how did this footy saga pass me by!

Watching those videos, Im struck and saddened by one thing in the Spanish one. There are words that shouldnt be coming out of childrens mouths. "They hate us". I know its MN, so perhaps its the mummy in me, but it reminds me of stuff children in custody battles trot out to please one or other parent. What on earth is a child doing, even being made aware of these things. "They hate us." Did I say it right? Do I get a lolly now? That is soooooo bad.

Batteries, I agree with Spin, certainly not an ignorant question. Yes the Catalans are divided over Independance, however, pretty much all Catalonians (I think last poll was 90%) want a legitimate vote, a referendum, to ask the Independance question. The outcome was secondary, it was the right to be asked. They were all in agreement over that.

Quick potted history;
This all started about 10 years ago, when a left wing Spanish government gave Catalonia a Statute of Autonomy, (very similar to Scotlands devolution), it was passed in the Spanish parliament by a large majority. However, one right wing party the PP, lead by Rajoy, objected and took a case to the Supreme Court stating it was 'unconstitutional'.

The case dragged on for years, but eventually in 2010, the Supreme Court ruled that key parts of the Statute were indeed illegal. (Heres a good point to repost Spains ranking on 'judicial independance'. In short, its shit)

Catalans protested. In 2011 Rajoy and the right wing PP, won the general election, and became PM (Here comes trouble).

In 2012, Catalonia had their elections, resulting in a pro independance majority. They then in turn, asked for a formal referendum on the question of Independance.
They then scheduled a referendum for November 2014. Rajoy objected and sought a legal block, which he achieved, so the Catalan parliament changed it from a binding referendum to a non-binding referendum. The Spanish court blocked this too, but it went ahead anyway. The result was an 81% vote for yes.

In light of the result, the Catalonian Parliament decided on new elections, this time making it clear that pro independance would indeed start the process for Catalonian Independance. They won the majority of seats, and in November 2016, the Catalonian parliament passed a resolution to start the Independance process.

Puigdemont became Catalonias President early this year (yes a little like Scotlands First Minister) and announced a binding referendum for October. Rajoy and the Spanish Courts blocked it, however this time, well I think youre up to speed, they sent in the heavies to stop the vote. All Catalans were appalled.

Rajoy has now stated he will dissolve the Catalonian Parliament and theres a high probability, Puigdemont will be imprisoned.

Do you know anything about Spanish football Batteries? Ive missed that side story

I suspect the foosball passed you by Caroline because... It's meant to. :)

Just another pointless intra city rivalry from the outside. There could be other instances in sport where the authorities have actively interfered, I really wouldn't know.

Suspect Spain's status as the last bastion of a European dictator makes it unique here, but I'm sure there's plenty who know more than I.

@Spinflight, so your strategy is cheap sarcasm over something which is true and which no one has said isn’t (the stadium thingy) and deafening silence over your lies which have been debunked (the rape and the fingers broken ‘one by one’). The facts speak for themselves - I don’t think any kind of comment is necessary.

@Carolinesbeanies, what I’d add to your summary is a comment on Jordi Pujol. He was the leader of the largest Catalan Party for about 30 years, and led the Generalitat (i.e. he was effectively the Catalan Prime Minister) for ca. 20, till he fell in disgrace when it was found that he and his family had millions stashed away in Andorra and Panama. His party, the same of Puidgemont, changed name, and strangely became more pro-independence. Some say it’s just a coincidence, prompted by Madrid’s behaviour more than by the Pujol scandal. I am not so sure, because, like I said, rallying your people against an external enemy is the oldest trick in the book to make them forget about your own problems.

Pujol was not just a politician, he was the face of Catalan politics for a very long time – too long a time, actually. IMHO it’s never healthy when a politician can hold the same important role for so many mandates; more than 20 years as Catalan Prime Minister/Governor (or whatever you want to call the role)? I cannot think of many comparable cases. There are cases of politicians leading their party for a very long time, but not many of politicians holding the same role for so long, AFAIK. Imagine if Alex Salmond had been Scottish PM for that long, and he was then involved in a corruption scandal. Imagine if his party changed name to distance itself from him, and then, only then, started to agitate for independence.

As Mistigri rightly pointed out, there was such a thing as Catalan terrorism (e.g. the Terra Lliure [free land] movement). They were active from roughly the ‘late 70s till the early ‘90s. They were no boyscouts, but they were always a much smaller threat than the Basque ETA. It is probably not a coincidence that Madrid offered Catalonia (and specifically Pujol) the same deal given to the Basque country in terms of fiscal autonomy in the ‘80s, when these Terra Lliure gentlemen were active, but Pujol rejected it. Recently the Catalans would want it again but Madrid doesn’t seem so keen.

One thing I must say I quite never understood is the details of the Catalan statute which was declared illegal by the Madrid court. How much of it was substance and how much of it was form? The Catalans already enjoy a huge degree of autonomy, and their language, culture and heritage is protected very strongly. I must say I always find it very odd when these details are not explained clearly. If Madrid had blocked some fundamental right of the Catalan people, shouldn’t the Catalans be shouting it clearly from the rooftops? Instead nothing. A bit like with Brexit: Brexiters have always loved to rant about unelected bureaucrats in Bruxelles and EU interference, but I am still to receive an answer to the very banal question: “OK, so what nasty EU law would you want to get rid of and why?”.

I also cannot stress enough that, similarly to the (lack of) debate around both Brexit and the Scottish independence, there has been no real discussion about the practical implications, and those who dare question how it will work are branded as “fascists”, enemy of the people, etc. , like Isabel Coixet, the director I mentioned, who receives regular abuse in the streets in Barcelona simply because she’s a (relatively) famous Catalan who dares speak out publicly against independence. Surely even those believe that Madrid is the root of all evil and that Catalonia should go it alone shouldn’t smear those who dare have a different opinion?

Catalonian Parliament declares independance, and in my view, quite right too. This is going to get painful, but from an original fence sitter, to a supporter quite simply due to Rajoys actions and the silence from the EU who could have brought him to heel weeks ago. Well done Catalonia.

Well Spin, there it is. How far does it now spread? And do the EU now back the actions we all know Rajoy is going to take? Thank fuck we dont have an EU army.