Catalexit

[Spinflight]

Quite a bun fight brewing in Spain..

The Catalonian government has passed laws and whatnot to hold a referendum on becoming independent on the 1st of October.

Which is rather awkward, as the Spanish government, the EU and various other bodies say that to do so, even to hold a vote, would be illegal.

Course there's lots of opinion polls, which naturally are all over the place.

The only thing they conclusively show is that the Catalans want a binding vote.

Whilst this is quite rightly an internal matter, were they to vote out ( which incidentally would put them out of the EU) should we support their wishes?

Surely the right to self determination trumps all other concerns, though it has to be said that we would really, really annoy Spain and the EU in doing so.

Interesting times, as ever. What are your thoughts?

Well polls opened to queues this morning, since the tech shut down, ballots printed at home being accepted. Peaceful Catalonias wishing to vote are now called 'activists' and various MSM here in UK running with the 'coup' headlines. Riot police moving in at various polling stations whilst the public try to protect the doors.

No MSM coverage. Riot police in full flow , twitter. #catalanreferendum

mobile.twitter.com/FPG_Galiza/status/914387119438811136/video/1

mobile.twitter.com/Berlustinho/status/914385685175525376/video/1

It's getting wall to wall coverage on Sky News. The scenes are pretty horrific.

Yep, and about time too. They cant ignore pictures like this for much longer.

Meanwhile on the other side..... the BBC reporting 'scuffles' and occasional "jostling"

Sky reporter just been shot at live on tv by riot police with plastic ballguns. Gone to ads.

The difference between the Basque country and Catalonia has always amazed me.

Only the former has terrorists (there is no Catalan equivalent of ETA), but the Basque are in many way less nationalist than the Catalans: not every Basque speaks Euskara but every Catalan speak Catalan; it is much easier to work in the Basque country speaking Spanish only than it is in Catalonia.

A few years ago I was in a restaurant in a small town between Barcelona and the French border; I tried to say something to the waiter in Spanish (I am fluent, I read books and watch movies in Spanish) and he angrily replied back to me in Catalan. WTF? He could tell from the accent I was not Spanish; I was just a tourist, I wasn't trying to make a political statement or anything. In this respect, the Catalans are way more aggressive than the Scots or (AFAIk) the Flemish.

"The Catalonian referendum is a matter for the Spanish govt & people, adding: “Spain is a close ally and a good friend, whose strength and unity matters to the UK."

This is going to bite us!

The right of self determination is both enshrined in numerous treaties and widely and properly seen as the bedrock of democracy. The EU treaties for instance allow the suspension or expulsion of states who use violence against their own people.

And Boris supports this, nothing to do with us. An internal matter, a few local difficulties.

I've been disappointed with May's silence, expected at least a "we support the right of people's to self determination" or similar. Nowt, nothing, nada.

Next time we lecture any country on freedom and democracy this will be thrown in our faces. And bloody right too.

Theres a very strong possibility they will unilaterally declare Independance tomorrow Spin, (or wednesday when the Catalonian parliament sits). There appears to be strong feeling that Puidgemont (spelling!!) is in as much of a corner as Rajoy.

Im still utterly utterly outraged at both Rajoy for setting the riot police on civilians, and our media still watering the whole event down. Amongst those attacked were women, young girls, the elderly, firefighters, and so on. But my enduring picture from the weekend? Is this one. Spain 2017. This should be hung outside the Palacio de las Cortes in Madrid.

I realise that Europe is an emotive issue and one that has very entrenched positions on either side.

Have the events in Catalonia; the EU's refusal to denounce state sponsored violence against people merely wishing to exercise their rights to vote and self determination; our own government's muted response and the shocking scenes barely reported in the media changed anyone's minds about the nature of the EU?

Whilst the EU treaties supposedly guarantee EU citizen's rights, it appears that this is conditional and not absolute. Hence not a right but a whim.

I'm hearing that Rajoy has effectively declared a state of emergency which could well yet see tanks deployed. Article 155.

Indeed Spin. Perhaps wording your question differently, may prompt some thought.

Does the EUs stance, that citizens EU rights in Catalonia are indeed under the supreme judgment of the national government in Spain, (and as persistantly repeated, a matter for the Spanish government only), concern any EU citizens living in Britain hoping for EU representation or protection post brexit?

Quite simply, the EU have made it clear that national law does indeed supercede EU laws regards any citizens rights. Perhaps they are just a trading bloc after all?

Meanwhile, Catalan officials are now being rounded up for sedition.

www.teletrader.com/report-catalan-officials-probed-for-sedition/news/details/40561154?internal=1

I hadn't thought about it that way around Caroline.

So in the brexit negotiations the EU is demanding the right to ignore EU citizens in the UK should they be beaten up en masse by our police?

May can and should use her speech today to denounce Spain and the EU. Articles 2 and 7 of their own treaty. Won't happen but hope springs eternal.

It is all way, way, way more complex than you make it appear.

I think sending the police to Catalonia to try and stop the referendum was stupid and counterproductive. Having said that, the violence was nowhere near what was described by the Catalan politicians.

A good summary is here: elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/02/hechos/1506963876_226068.html You can try google translate if you don't speak Spanish.

Long story short, the figure of 800+ is totally misleading: those were the medical cases attended to, most of which were anxiety and panic attacks, just to name one. No, I'm not saying there was no violence, just not on the scale some think. Oh, and there was violence against the police, too.

It is true that historically the right to self-determination has been exercised through some kind of revolt against the "laws" in force at the time. Half the world would still be ruled by European powers, had it not rebelled against the "laws".

However, none of this is even remotely applicable to Catalonia. The unity of the Spanish state is a foundation of the Consitution, which was approved by all Spaniards, including Catalans. Spain is, in many respects, more federal than the US and Catalans already enjoy a huge degree of autonomy.

But what if they want more? Isn't it their right?
Well, it's complicated. First of all, there is no proof that the majority of Catalans actually want independence. This referendum was a farce, and totally meaningless. But, on a more general level, who should vote? Residents of Catalonia - even the non-Catalans? How about the Catalans outside of Catalonia? What majority should be required? None of these points have been addressed thoughtfully.

The only thing that is clear is that it is ridiculous to depict Spain and the EU as some kind of oppressors of the poor Catalan people - but Brexiters are never deterred by a lack of facts.

SouthLondondaddy, I think Ada Colau, Mayor of Barcelona, can respond far better than I, as she addresses all the points you are attempting to make here.

"The government of the PP persists in its lies. It continues to deny what is obvious to the international press and to everyone who has seen the images of the police crackdown on October 1 in Catalunya: that there was violence, brutality, viciousness.
For many years, the right-wing in Spain has created a false and distorted image of what is happening in Catalunya. They speak of totalitarianism, of a broken society, of a population cowed by violent separatists. Even the words they choose are not neutral. “Seditious” and “separatist” are not descriptive terms but rather are highly charged. They begin by dehumanizing the other with these words … and they end by beating elderly women in the doors of schools, and calling this behaviour “professionalism”, “proportionality” and “defence of democracy”.
When there are two very different versions of the same reality, it is best to analyse the facts.
It is a fact that on October 1, 844 people were injured. One of them has almost lost an eye…proportionality? What is proportional to an eye? What is proportional to pushing a woman down stairs? To grabbing elderly women by the hair? To the fear that children felt and still feel at seeing their schools damaged?
I am not in favour of independence for Catalunya, and I do not support unilateral actions. I have said this many times and I say it again. I am very critical of the government of Puigdemont and I do not like how things have been handled. But there is something which rises above our individual opinions and which should unite all of us who believe in and defend rights, freedom and democracy: the use of state violence against a peaceful population cannot be tolerated.
Today the government spokesman has called the Catalans who demonstrated against the police repression “Nazis”. Again, the words … Nazis? Is Mr. Hernando aware of what the Nazis did? Did the Nazis demonstrate peacefully for years to secure the right to vote? Did the Nazis protect schools while hundreds of police beat them? The thousands of men and women, young and old, who today have filled the streets chanting “We are people of peace” are really “Nazis”? Using the word “Nazi” so carelessly is an insult to the victims of Nazism and Mr. Hernando should be ashamed.
If what I am writing manages to cross informational borders, if people outside of Catalunya read it and want to know what is happening here, I would respectfully ask them to attempt to analyse this conflict with an open mind. I would dare them to question what is being said by government spokespeople, what is being denied and, even worse, what is being justified.
We are facing a state crisis without precedent and I am concerned about the complete impasse in the relationship between the Catalan and Spanish governments. But what would be truly tragic would be if we allow the many ties of fraternity and affection that unite us, the people, to be fractured. We cannot allow this.
We have been hit. We have been hurt. It will not be easy to forget this. We need your support.
What has happened violates the fundamental rights and freedoms of all of us: Catalans, Spaniards, Europeans…Today it is Catalunya, but tomorrow it may be anywhere if we accept this and it goes unpunished. If we justify it, we are lost. Everyone loses. Democracy loses.
Our fathers, mothers and grandparents who together fought for democracy would not forgive us. For them, for their legacy, let us join together to save democracy, to remove from their posts those people who ordered this crackdown and who are incapable of seeking political and peaceful solutions. Those in government must listen, must respect the people, must put forth positive proposals and alternatives and, above all, must never act against an unarmed population."

Again, 800+ were the people attended to, not actually hurt (lots of panic attacks). I'm not saying there was no violence, I'm just putting it into context; some Catalanas have said it was one of the most violent and serious events of the last decades - no, it wasn't, not even close, way more people get hurt at protests against the G8 or things like that.

I am not a supporter of the PP. But if there are nazi-like attitutes, they are more easily found in the pro-independence camp. Have you ever lived in Catalonia? Do you know how difficult your life can be if you are openly against independence? Isabel Coixet, a film director from Barcelona, has recently spoken out against the constant abuse she is subject to (people calling her fascist in the streets) simply because she is against independence. Look her up - she gave interviews in both English and Spanish, if I remember correctly.

Ah, one more thing: do you know Jordi Pujol? Look him up. He was the undisputed leader of Catalan politics for more than 2 decades - never particularly pro independence. Then it was found out that he and his family had millions stashed away in Panama and Andorra. Huge turmoil in Catalan politics; his party, that of Puigdemont, changed name and, oh what a surprise, started becoming more pro-independence. Nothing like rallying your voters against a common enemy to let them forget of a huge internal corruption scandal.

And, of course, like with most pro-independence movements, there has been no discussion whatsoever about the costs, taxes, pensions, joining the EU... It seems that banks and companies are already voting in their own referendum, though, by moving the registered address well away from Catalonia.

You're clearly made of tougher stuff than me SouthLondonDaddy.

If someone dragged me away from a voting booth, and broke my fingers one by one to teach me a lesson, I suspect that I too might have a panic attack.

You must be referring to the lady who admitted on TV3 that she has 'capsulitis' (a kind of inflammation) on one finger only.

www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2017/10/03/59d33f35ca47412d7f8b4604.html

You know, in an age when every idiot can publish fake news on the net, it might probably be wiser to be a bit more sceptical of what one reads on the web.

The situation in Catalonia is not comparable to, say, that of a colony trying to free itself from European oppressors. Spain is far from perfect. The very fact that king Juan Carlos was de facto chosen by the dictator Franco as his successor is beyond words. But Spain has a Constitution the whole population, including the Catalans, voted for. The independence of Catalonia would affect the entire country, to an extent not comparable to, again, that of a colony seeking freedom.

And these Catalan politicians want to declare independence on the basis of a referendum where people could print the ballot papers from home, and were allowed to vote in any constituency just by showing up? Were they taking lessons from North Korea on how to run an election?

Also, why are all the banks enterprises and investors fleeing Catalonia? Mmm...

Some Catalans would like a deal comparable to what the Basque have (concierto ecónomico), which basically gives the Basque country the right to retain most of its tax revenues. Notably, this was offered to Pujol (the guy who stashed squillions in Andorra an Panama) in the '80s, but he refused.
For those who don't know, this was the time of Terra Lliure, the Catalan terrorist movement, which was never as much of a threat as the ETA, but, still, they were no harmless boy scouts.

Just like this deal didn't stop the ETA, there's no guarantee it would have stopped the Catalan independence movement. And there's also a question of fairness: I'm not sure this kind of deal would be sustainable if applied to every single "autonomous community" (region) in Spain. Catalonia is a rich region but it's not subsidising the whole country alone; in fact, its fiscal imbalance is roughly identical to that of Madrid, according to official ministerial data.

Lol, are you comical Ali?

I don't have to skeptical of what I read on the web, I know and am in regular contact with people there, who all tell me they are terrified.

Judge for yourselves whether this is acceptable behaviour..

I've got a DVD of violence and intimidation since the referendum on it's way, will be happy to share. There's no lack of evidence and footage of violence against ordinary people merely trying to vote.

Please I beg you carry on trying to justify this.

It's amusing and raises awareness of the fascist forces arrayed against the Catalonians far more effectively than I ever could...

You said the police broke a woman’s fingers one by one.
I have shown you that the same woman went on national TV to explain this was not true. If this is not the textbook definition of fake news, then I honestly do not know what possibly is. If you still fail to recognise this, then there’s no point wasting time talking to you.

And what was your reply? Posting a video with the title “police rape woman, break her fingers one by one at polling station”. Rape? Really? Where? When? Where is the proof of that? Break her fingers? We have already gone through that…

What is with the word ‘fascist’ that is so widely abused this day? People should remember that it does not mean “anyone who dares disagree with me”. The Catalan director I mentioned earlier receives daily abuse in the street, and gets called fascist (among many, less gentle names) simply because she dares disagree with the pro-independence movement. Care to comment on these (far from isolated) incidents?

Like I said, I am no fan of the PP, and sending the police to try to prevent the referendum was always going to be recipe for the disaster. Yes, there has been violence, and no, I do not justify it in any way. But saying that police raped a woman and broke her fingers one by one is simply false. There is no other word for it. Also, for the sake of fairness, if the Spanish police were brutal and “fascist”, then so were the Mossos (the Catalan police) every single time they tried to break or disrupt protests in their own Catalonia with far more brutality.

Care to comment on why Cataln politicians did not deem it appropriate to even talk about what will happen, and why, to, you know, banal things like… the banks, their access to the ECB, Catalonia’s membership of the euro, international recognition, the additional costs of being independent, setting up your own borders, embassies and what not, whether these costs will outweigh the ‘benefits’ of being independent and not subsiding the other regions of Spain, etc. ?

Todays a day Spin, the world is watching Puidgemont. My guess, silence will rein, your move Mr Rajoy.

Seems Rajoy is denying that the ball is in his court. Not sure what he thinks he has to gain by playing for time here...

But still threatening to send the tanks in.

English version of Puidgemonts letter, whilst he refers to Rajoys Art155 threat, he doesnt address it at such, as to be fair, why should he? Rajoys running round making hot air noises, whats he going to threaten next?

Either sh*t or get off the pot is my reaction.

Anyway, allegedly (?) Rajoys threatened last chance nuclear option for today........has been moved to thursday.

"Care to comment on why Cataln politicians did not deem it appropriate to even talk about what will happen, and why, to, you know, banal things like… the banks, their access to the ECB, Catalonia’s membership of the euro, international recognition, the additional costs of being independent, setting up your own borders, embassies and what not, whether these costs will outweigh the ‘benefits’ of being independent and not subsiding the other regions of Spain, etc. ?"

I will Southlondondaddy. Its Independance, not an exercise in due diligence on a section of population. If we could do that, euthanasia would be mandatory for the over 70s.

Oh, I see, so you find it perfectly normal that a people should not worry their pretty little heads over tiny details, and should just jump off a cliff blindfolded, safe in the confidence that all will be fine, because their politicians said so, even if they utterly failed to provide a modicum of proof to support it. Right. I cannot see what might possibly be wrong with this logic :) After all, it explains Brexit just perfectly…
And, let’s see, if a Catalan were to say that he wouldn’t mind independence, but that he cannot make a fully informed decision until these points are clarified?