Catalexit

[Spinflight]

Quite a bun fight brewing in Spain..

The Catalonian government has passed laws and whatnot to hold a referendum on becoming independent on the 1st of October.

Which is rather awkward, as the Spanish government, the EU and various other bodies say that to do so, even to hold a vote, would be illegal.

Course there's lots of opinion polls, which naturally are all over the place.

The only thing they conclusively show is that the Catalans want a binding vote.

Whilst this is quite rightly an internal matter, were they to vote out ( which incidentally would put them out of the EU) should we support their wishes?

Surely the right to self determination trumps all other concerns, though it has to be said that we would really, really annoy Spain and the EU in doing so.

Interesting times, as ever. What are your thoughts?

Sadly Spain now has taken political prisoners..

apnews.com/f87e8e7dd86240d5a412ba3a7a1a6b2e/The-Latest:-Judge-jails-2-Catalan-independence-leaders?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=AP

"Catalonia’s regional leader says the jailing on sedition charges of the leaders of two pro-independence groups is “very bad news.”"

I know I shouldn't worry my pretty little head about such things, might lead to a panic attack.

Do you finally admit that you posted fake news about the police raping (that was the title of the video you posted) a woman and breaking her fingers one by one?
[Yes.]
[No]
[I refuse to answer because I cannot admit my mistakes]
[Something else (please specify)]

Please tick one of the above.

Its outrageous Spin, yet apparently utterly acceptable to the EU as the threat of Independance and self governance is a far greater crime against the EU than re-installing a dictatorship, oppression, political detentions and state violence. War and forced barriers, is the EU preference to any consideration of a peaceful, national identifying, civic independance between what would be 2 states utterly tied to each other anyway by families and economics.

There is no support for peaceful Independance, simply because there is no support for Independance full stop. The question is why?

The vast majority of eu member states would welcome the new, wealthy Catalonia with open arms. Why wouldnt they? Politically, the Nordics, the Balkans, the UK, Ireland etc are quietly letting their outrage be known.

Catalonian independance isnt and never was a risk to european peace. Rajoy is. The EU never cease to bewilder.

Would it be too much to ask to substantiate even only half of what you have written?

Dictatorship. How and why? I am no fan of the Spanish PM, but he’s no dictator, even if sending the police was, IMHO, stupid and counterproductive .

The vast majority would welcome Catalonia. Why do you say that when all evidence suggests the contrary?

You are forgetting that Spanish unity is one of the principles of their Constitution, a Constitution that was democratically voted and accepted by all Spaniards, including the Catalans. It was voted a while ago, yes; so what? Do laws automatically have an expiration date? The statute against killing people is probably centuries old, this doesn’t mean I can go on a spree and kill people just like that!

Many people love to say that every independence movement was, at some point, “illegal” according to the laws of the country it was trying to break free from. Washington was “illegal” in the eyes of London. Bolivar (the liberator of Gran Colombia, i.e. Venezuela Colombia and Ecuador) was “illegal” in the eyes of Madrid. Etc. What these people fail to realise is that London and Madrid never gave their colonies political freedom. The Catalans live in a democratic country, whose Constitution was democratically approved by all citizens, including those of Catalonia. None of this applies to Washington and Bolivar. That’s a huge, huge, huuuuge difference.

Madrid is between a rock and a hard place. What would you do if you were the Spanish PM? Would you tell the Catalan politicians: “yes, by all means, ignore the Constitution and go ahead? Would you send in the army and come across as an authoritarian bastard?

Like I said, there has been NO debate whatsoever on the actual implications of independence. All very similar to Brexit, with possibly the only difference being that they didn’t have a posh, privately educated and Latin-speaking politician, who claims he cannot support his family on a salary of only £140k, saying they’d have more millions for their health service.

What worries me is that it is far from clear that there is a definite majority in support of independence, unless you want to consider the result of a referendum where you could print the polling card from home and vote in any seat you liked. Even if you are pro-independence, even if you bury your head in the sand and don’t want to ask the difficult questions about what independence means, shouldn’t you at least want to be sure that something as important and potentially irreversible as independence is, in fact, supported by a strong majority of the people? Decisions like these should require a qualified majority. In the UK, you need 2/3 of the votes in the Commons to call an early election. Yet 52% of the votes was enough to declare Brexit. Folly. Utter folly.

There is also much to be said about the limits of direct democracy, and how it lends itself to becoming hostage to demagogues and populists. There is a reason, after all, why the constitutions of many countries explicitly prohibit referendums on international treaties and on tax matters. You disagree? You think it limits the freedom of the people? Then think of what would happen if there were a referendum on: “do you want 1% tax rate?”. Or what would happen in certain parts of the world if there were a referendum to kick out a given minority/ethnic or religious group. Freedom is never absolute – that’s the difference between a liberal democracy and the tyranny of the majority.

Spain has taken political prisoners. The EU should issue Article 7 and suspend Spains rights with immediate effect.

They threatened Poland with Article 7, if Duda sacked a Judge. Clearly job protection falls under Art 7, locking people up for a political belief, doesnt.

I think we all agreed, prior to this month, that a legitimate referendum would have seen the Independance campaign probably fail. Today, the world is an utterly different place.

and PS. Its not very similar to Brexit, the similarities, if any, are Scottish independance, and the right to be asked. The only other similarities I think youre refering too, is the rhetoric from some Scottish independance campaigners, and some Remain campaigners, is that somehow the losing side are now oppressed. Perhaps locking up those who disagree with us is indeed the new way forward, irrespective of any majority vote.

.......and for those still banging on about the 'legalities', heres the Council of Europes latest report on the highly concerning issue of Spains lack of judicial independance, and their failure to address the Council of Europes concerns raised 3 years ago.

rm.coe.int/16806ca04a

You are conveniently ignoring (why?) the fact that Spanish unity is one of the principles of their Constitution, which was democratically voted by all Spaniards, including Catalans. Spain is not the only European country with this principle, which, in fact, is in no way contrarian to any aspect of European law. Poland is in no way comparable. The power grab by Polish and Hungarian politicians, their attempt to undermine the judiciary, to take control of the media etc. have NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the Catalan case.

The two individuals you mention were NOT arrested because they are pro independence, they were not arrested for their political ideas, or nothing of the sort: they were arrested because they specifically obstructed the police, which is very, very, very different.
Please, name ONE individual who has been arrested for ever saying he was pro independence. Name one – just one.

Ever heard of the Northern League in Italy? At one point it claimed it was pro-independence, although whether it ever really was is debatable. In the late ‘90s a bunch of buffoons “took over” the San Marco belltower, the very symbol of Venice, claiming theirs was a gesture for the independence of Northern Italy; they even had an old but functioning rifle. Of course they were arrested. By your logic, they were political prisoners?

The situation IS comparable to Brexit to the extent the leave camp has made no mention whatsoever of what will actually happen and why: no mention about the costs, about not having access to the ECB, about membership of the EU, etc. This is very similar to both the Scottish and the Brexit referendum because in both cases there was no clarity whatsoever on what the plan would have been. Wrt Brexit, almost 18 months have gone by and there is still little clarity now!

Oh, there was one Catalan politician who said something like: don’t worry, no company will ever leave Catalonia. Well, he has passed for a fool because facts have proven him wrong – big time.

"they were arrested because they specifically obstructed the police, which is very, very, very different."

You best start locking up a lot more then........

Looks like a badun to me..

You can tell, not by what he says, but by the menacing and evil glint in his eye.

Bravo to Spain, I think they've locked the right man up, clearly a threat to public safety.

Steady Spin, we all know this bloke is a far greater risk to Spanish peace, he may roll over your toe or something........

Spin, theres some merit in this Op Ed this morning. Im still ruminating. The federal states of Spain?

www.nytimes.com/2017/10/18/opinion/roadmap-catalonia.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

It's an interesting "look at me" from the leader of a party in terminal decline Caroline, and one gets the sense that he expects a political advantage.

He's better placed to judge than I but I can't see it. I doubt Rajoy and co would jump for joy at the prospect of Catalan elections as it would merely be treated as an actual referendum. At least 48% supported the separatist party last time around, though how many supported their aims but not their other policies is unclear.

Seems to be the rough equivalent of the lib dems asking for a second referendum in the international press. Good for personal exposure but somewhat devoid of anything else.

"It's an interesting "look at me" ..." It is Spin, but its concilliatory in tone, and as the deadline approaches, the only concilliatory noise Ive read with 'give' to both sides, coming from any quater. Everywhere else, battlelines are drawn. (Well done Slovenia for stating the obvious, of course ALL EU states would recognise an Independant Catalonia, GDP 50% higher than Greece, its ridiculous politicking that TMs doing, for no benefit whatsoever).

The Guardian excelled themselves yesterday, with a 'Catalonia's in this position because of Catalan media propoganda' piece, utterly ignoring the fact Catalans speak Spanish (those that speak Catalan are bi-lingual), and TV3 account for around 13% of the TV, the rest is Spanish TV. Its the whole, ignore the facts, spin the agenda reporting in MSM thats been utterly counter productive......again.

Anyway, Rajoys new nuclear deadline 10am today, Amnesty International are calling for the release of Sanchez and Cuixart and the International legal community are gathering. One thing is absolutely certain, this isnt a "domestic matter for Spain". The world watches Mr Rajoy.

PrivateEye this this week.........

Rajoy has utterly screwed Spain and put them back 40 years. And I say that in a considered and non-emotive manner.

"The Guardian excelled themselves yesterday, with a 'Catalonia's in this position because of Catalan media propoganda' piece, utterly ignoring the fact Catalans speak Spanish (those that speak Catalan are bi-lingual"

Exactly what article were you referring to? And what does the fact that Catalans are bilingual have to do with anything? AFAIK no one denies that Catalans speak Spanish, too; many can speak it but refuse to, but that's another story.

@Spinflight, is it against your religion to admit that you posted fake news? You do realise that you have no credibility whatsoever if you first post fake news, then refuse to acknowledge it, don't you?

It has finally shown that the EU is an organisation of states. The EU is willfully ignoring the democratic wishes of millions of Catalans who are also EU citizens.

It seems that invoking 155 was a bluff, one deadline already gone and Saturday's doesn't therefore carry much weight.

Whilst it's more aimed at forcing an autonomous region to provide street lighting and other local council rubbish; any constitutional article explicitly allowing armed force to be used against a population would do so in explicit and legalistic terms, it's use now seems less likely.

Hence instead it appears that they will force Catalonia to conduct fresh elections. Hence Mr Iceta in the article you linked to probably had a sneek peek of their plans Caroline. Which indicates to me that their new strategy will be covertly and overtly trying to help him win.

Smear the current Catalonian government, restrict their access to the media, pour money into Iceta's campaign, intimidate, coerce.... Think our referendum campaign with added repression, gagging and violence.

Whilst unconstitutional I'm not completely convinced that the Catalans will reject this notion. They can treat it as a referendum.

Interesting bit of political opportunism but... Still not seeing the advantage.

Which worries me.

cdtaylornats, they are. They are disregarding a proportion of eu citizens, and their fundamental rights, prefering to criminalise them for their desire for a vote, whilst tacitly supporting state police brutality. Sedition for heavens sake. Its still quite unbelievable.

Spin, You could be right with Iceta, but, he is tabling additional powers and self governance, where Rajoy is clearly doing the opposite. Its almost impossible to turn back the clock, but we do know Catalonia is divided over the Independance question. Is Icetas compromise, acceptable to both sides (with of course pardons for Sanchez and Cuixart an added complication now), whereas any other alternative leaves one side the loser?

One thing is for sure, even if Iceta has a plan and does indeed succeed, Catalonia will never forgive the EU. The EU chose Rajoy, and Rajoys tactics to support, over fundamental human rights. All any Catalonian wanted, on both sides of the question, was a legitimate vote.

Spanish prosecutors prepare lawsuit against Puigdemont for 'rebellion'. Up to 30 years imprisonment. Its coming.

www.ccma.cat/324/la-fiscalia-prepara-una-querella-contra-puigdemont-per-rebellio/noticia/2816294/

Quite right Caroline.

And the Catalans have a rather amusing, non violent and, if it works, masterful plan.

Organising bank runs. :D

Not just your average Jose withdrawing their monthly wages. Companies, organisations, corporations etc... All acting in concert.

Watch this space, but loving the idea.

@Spinflight, what do you mean?

AFAIK what most companies have done is to move their registered address away from Catalonia.

But you are a liar who posts fake news and refuses to admit it, even when confronted with irrefutable evidence, so...

In the spirit of not posting fake news
what some companies have done is to move their registered address away from Catalonia.

Including the two largest Catalonia banks. Surely an irrelevant detail. But then facts have this nasty habit of getting in the way of ideology...