Trump (Part 4)

[claig]

Continuing discussion of the Trumpquake and populist rebellions

So do you believe that a president and vice president who want more states to impose restrictions on abortions are supporting the rights of women

Some of you sound like you support unrestricted abortion at any stage of the pregnancy for non-medical reasons, no rape, no incest. That is the bullying groupthink I have received from all of you.

Roussette- I could not be more clear. I am speaking of late abortions for NON-MEDICAL reasons. The piece you hv just posted is to do with serious medical problems in the foetus.

I'm not bullying you. I just want to know why you won't answer my question.

Have we said that southall? No we have not.

I certainly don't support abortion at ANY stage of pregnancy for non medical reasons, or rape or incest. Of course not.

I do however think women should have choice. Sensible choice, but choice. The 'heartbeat rule' now in one State is not choice is it??? I don't wish to speak for others but given who the VP is, I think women in the states have a lot to fear about their choices with regard to their reproductive rights.

And southall I think I read somewhere that late abortions for non medical etc reasons accounts for about 0.2% of abortions. It also depends on your defnition of 'late'.

Going back to the original article you were very against the 13 week woman and implied she should have had more sense. Is that a late termination?

I know that there are two different conversations going on here at the moment but I thought I'd put this out there for further perusal as a last post from me. Good to see Big Pharma and Catastrophic Climate Change scientists coming together to help us all:

In a recent Accenture and GlaxoSmithKline ($GSK) study with the University of Oxford, GSK CEO Andrew Witty wrote, "My ambition is to see GSK and the pharmaceutical industry come together to make a progressive industry response to climate change and health. There is an opportunity for us to work closely with other key stakeholders, to initiate a dialogue around the actions we can collectively take, and to stimulate innovation and research in the area. As good corporate citizens, we all need to ensure that the impact of climate change on health is better understood so that we can form an appropriate response."
..........

Sanofi

One of 38 official partners of the COP21 conference and the only Big Pharma on that list, Paris-based Sanofi ($SNY) focuses its efforts on the health impacts of climate change.

"Sanofi has decided to be an official partner of COP21 in order to raise awareness on the consequences of climate change on health, but also to take action to prevent such impacts," Gilles Lhernould, senior vice president, Corporate Social Responsibility, said in a statement on Sanofi's website.

Along with pledging to provide medicine and vaccines as well as raise awareness of the impacts of climate change on health...etc., etc., etc.. You all know the script by now.

You aren't being bullied, Southall, and for the record, what I'm interested in is your thoughts on abortion between 12 and 20 weeks. Do you believe that a president and vice-president who want more states to restrict abortions (a) between those time limits or (b) once the foetal heartbeat is evident are supporting the rights of women?

"It says something when clinics were inundated after the election on consultations for the coil and the implant. "

and this says it all. Women decide to think about contraception when the choice to use abortion as a contraception method may be removed. What else is there to say?

20 weeks (thats 5 months!) is more than acceptable to me (exceptions as stated).

Going back to the original article you were very against the 13 week woman and implied she should have had more sense. Is that a late termination?

No, that is not a late termination, but has to be done surgically rather than by suction obviously.

chrisnumbers these were not uneducated women who would use abortion as a birth control method. These are women (there were many quotes..) who don't trust Trump, they felt backed into a corner, they werent comfortable with having a coil fitted at that time in their lives but with his views, his flip flopping on abortion, and with Pence as his VP, they felt forced to.

I just want to know why you won't answer my question

Because it would involve admitting that Trump and Pence are misogynists who don't care about harm to women?

what I'm interested in is your thoughts on abortion between 12 and 20 weeks

Deepan - My thoughts are neither here nor there for what should be in USA. How an individual views life, all life, is very much tied up with what they as a single state or as a society choose as a baseline. It's connected to compassion for the mother and the foetus, and it's connected to sensibility.

In the UK the young (and not so young) women are frivolous about their fertility and it is not uncommon to have multiple abortion used as 'contraception'. I saw it when I was a practice manager.

It seems to me that a hardening of the soul everywhere has occurred towards our most vulnerable, such as the old and the very young and inevitably this hardening has made men & women blasé about terminating right up to 24 weeks in this country. I suppose if you dont have a voice, you don't exist.

When I said that Anna should hv been more careful I believe she should have. If I lived in Indiana that had such a constraint (12 week rule), a baby and no job I would do most UTMOST not to get pregnant - whether Mr Wonderful wanted to use a rubber or not.

I managed it thru my teens and twenties - and I live in London, where an abortion would have been dead easy for me to get. If your situation is not good for a second child, you do not take risks.

If I was being asked by America, I would suggest 16 week limit for non-medical reasons. If serious medical abnormalities are found way past that time, then it is up to the woman what she wants to do. Either go to full term & deliver, or terminate very late.
But not taking care in the first place is not an option for me.

"these were not uneducated women who would use abortion as a birth control "

....and theres the liberal patronisation. So, uneducated women use abortion as birth control, but educated women decide to seek birth control when theyre "backed in a corner" over policy uncertainty on late abortions and may lose the choice of abortion as birth control. Of course. Silly me.

Hmmm.... Anna... perhaps she had bleeding, perhaps she didn't know she was pregnant. Surely that's a possibility?

My goodness southall you sound very sanctimonious. Mistakes do happen even with the most careful. I just think what if this happened to one of my DDs. Where they honestly had no idea they were pregnant until it was too late by your reckoning. They are careful, they protect themselves, they are sensible but I would hate to think of one of them being forced to have a baby they did not want from say a ONS. (this would be an unusual situation because they aren't 'frivolous' ... your word not mine!... but who knows, I would never say 'that will NEVER happen with my daughters.' That leads to complacency IMHO)

I imagined you thought they were uneducated chrisnumbers.

Liberal patronisation haha

Roussette - Sanctimonius, no I dont think so. Women's repro rights, sure, but with rights comes understanding the consequences of a night of pash without protection.

Put aside for the moment her being at 13 weeks and tell me why she was not protected*.

It seems to me that a hardening of the soul everywhere has occurred towards our most vulnerable, such as the old and the very young

And women, in the US, right now.

I'm sure that abortion being legal and "easy" has some drawbacks, such as some women (and men) using it (or thinking of it) as contraception, but I do believe that the benefits do outweigh the problems.

You may well have been lucky not to get pregnant while having contraception. Even men who have the snip and women who tie their tubes sometimes end up having babies. Nothing short of removing the gonads or the womb is full proof.

We don't know that she wasn't protected. No method of contraception is 100% infallible. Condoms split or fall off. The cap is sometimes incorrectly fitted or some sperm make it through the spermicide. If someone has diarrhoea or vomits or has other problems with absorption the pill doesn't always work. You can get pregnant with an IUD fitted. Fertile people sometimes get pregnant despite taking precautions. The only way to guarantee you won't get pregnant is to never have sex. Presumably this is what you will be recommending to your daughters.

and tell me why she was not protected

Who knows. We don't know what happened. Perhaps she thought she was. Perhaps she's on the pill and had diarrhoea, perhaps perhaps perhaps... we don't know do we....

Agree with llewj it is not idea to have abortion legally available but it sure is better than some poor woman having to travel hundreds of miles to a state where she can get an abortion. Even the Donald stumbled over his words when questioned closely on that. Not that he cares.

Good to see Big Pharma and Catastrophic Climate Change scientists coming together to help us all:

Actually, yes, it is good to see Big Pharma responding to Climate Change.

You haven't actually shown a link between Pharma and "Catastrophic Climate Change scientists", and I'm not sure who you think those scientists are.
For me to be concerned, you'd have to show that Big Pharma is convincing University scientists to fake or massage data showing there is global warming.
It has been shown before and Big Pharma are only now catching up.

It is important that Big Pharma finally responds to the challenges posed by expansion of diseases that have mostly been confined to the Tropics and for the most part been neglected, for example.

*ideal

Some of you sound like you support unrestricted abortion at any stage of the pregnancy for non-medical reasons, no rape, no incest. That is the bullying groupthink I have received from all of you.

Given the choice, I'd rather have the baby than abort it. But I do think women should be able to choose, and I'd rather have legal abortions where the woman's health is protected, than illegal abortions by unqualified people in dangerous conditions.

As for bullying, you're the one who posted offensive comments about "learning to think".

I thought we were having a discussion.

Oh god. I'm sorry Lewji. I've just realised I've been spelling your name wrong just about all my life I've made you welsh with a double LL at the beginning!

youstillare