Trump (Part 2)

[claig]

More on the meaning of Trump, the Trumpsters and Trumpism

What date is the Austria vote? I think Renzi is on 4 Dec

Just read the Economist article you linked on Renzi where they want a No vote. It seems they are scared that if there is a Yes vote, then Grillo will benefit and only grow stronger in any coming election and that means a Euro referendum.

I think they are kidding themselves that a No vote will hold the water in the damn long enough to find a way out. Either way, pressure on the Euro is mounting. They are right that a No vote gives teh elites more time than a Yes vote which enables Grillo, but either way it looks like bad news for them.

Just read the article that SwedishEdith linked to on Farage getting ready to support Le Pen. I think he will definitely support her and my guess is that it comes straight from the Trump Train who want to take down the EU. Farage's role is probably taker down of the EU for Trump and the team.

Farage calls Le Pen "briliant"

"Mr Farage said: “I know her. She's very determined, brilliant on TV. I mean absolutely brilliant.

“When you watch her making her argument and you can see her getting into it she is really good at it. There's lots of baggage and that's the problem.”

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-marine-le-pen-french-presidential-election-front-nationale-prejudice-and-antisemitism-a7442036.html

She is very, very clever, knows all the arguments and knows her stuff whenever I have seen her interviewed.

With Trump, you had you heart in your mouth and your hands over your eyes in a debate in case he messed it up because he doesn't know the detail. It was a wild ride with Trump, like a rollercoaster on steroids, and after one of his debates, you found you had aged by weeks, but Trump somehow always pulled it off, but Le Pen has none of those problems, because she really does know her stuff.

I think the EU is coming down and fast. Trump has no time for it.

4th December Claig. Hofer is pretty far right and has pressed for an EU Referendum, but not committed to it as one of his sticking points was Turkey. If Turkey were to join he was 100% out.

The EU this week have all of a sudden taken Turkeys possible membership off the table, go figure. With everything Erdogan did in June/July, they decide this week, 5 months later, theyre not best pleasd with him.

However, I think Hofer was just playing a diplomacy game over Turkey. Hes a nationalist. Hes a huge critic of eroding sovereign power.

Its a left vs right contest and a rerun of a ballot done earlier this year.

'The EU this week have all of a sudden taken Turkeys possible membership off the table, go figure. With everything Erdogan did in June/July, they decide this week, 5 months later, theyre not best pleasd with him.'

Electing Le Pen is never going to be a price worth paying.

Farage is foolish to even think about it.

Farage's opinion is worthless in France and won't influence anyone.

Yes I was wondering how Farage slavering over Le Pen from the sidelines was going to make much difference to French voters.

"Electing Le Pen is never going to be a price worth paying. "

I was just ruminating over that Spin. And Austria have the same problem. Doesnt it just compound the idiocy though, in their blind desperation to avoid an EU referendum? Dear Left. Just let your people have a say on the EU. Its not hard.

We need bananagio here on Italy. Her posts gave a great insight. Any Austrian posters or expats out there?

"I was just ruminating over that Spin. And Austria have the same problem. "

I don't think it's the same problem. Austria is a traditionally extremely conservative country which, with a notable exception, doesn't produce flash Harry's who could set the world on fire. Very prosperous throughout the ages (porsche, red bull etc) and quiet. Almost indiscernably quiet. You could elect hannibal lecter there and chances are noone would notice.

France in the other hand is a problem. Nuclear armed, security Council, contrariness especially with regards to soap and a traditionally revolution spawning hotbed of awfulness best described as French. Who leads it does matter.

And I wouldn't assume that their eurosceptic credentials hold much water, or any of their philosophical roots. The NF just seem to be opportunists without basis. Avowed fascists one minute, hard left the next and now trying to be photogenic populists.

As to a referendum I think France is wedded to the idea of the EU, it is their lack of influence as the EU expanded.

Don't forget that much of EU policy was originally designed to favour the French, by the French. The cap, cfp etc are heavily weighted in their favour and they do benefit overall I'd say. Second only to Germany at the trough.

More likely than the French actually leaving, even if they voted for it, would be them looking to take a lead instead of Germany. With some support particularly from Eastern Europe I have to say. There's a lot of resentment towards the Germans in the east particularly due to them being German.

You really want Le Pen holding all that power and potential future power?

Donald Trump is now questioning the legitimacy of the election he won

I think Id disagree. Ive always viewed the French differently. Patriotic, historically isolationist with an ability to take to the streets and challenge the establishment whenever it felt neccesary. Weve mocked the Frenchs' ability to strike, yet watched in envy as they did.

Yes Ill agree that initially, EU subsidies did indeed hugely support and favour french farmers etc however, the knock on effect of EU wide subsidies and free trade caused such a mass production of food, prices plummeted. Farmers were left yet again, with now a different problem of low prices and an eu overproduction issue.

France has not only been placed at the sharp end of the migrant crisis, but have found themselves exposed with the recent terrorist attacks. Adding to that the impact of EU free trade and over production they have no control over their supply and price ratio. France has felt the full impact of the negative effects of the great EU experiment. Free trade and free movement hasnt worked for the common man.

I thought I was sitting on the fence on this one, but having ruminated, Ill go for Le Pen. The french know how to castrate an unpopular President, they dont know or even have the means, to castrate the EU council. Fancy a wager spin? Im on Le Pen. Ill buy you a

"You really want Le Pen holding all that power and potential future power?"

I took this as a rhetorical question, but if not, its really nothing to do with what I want. Im not standing Le Pen up as some great leader, just ruminating over the choices available. But what do I know.....

Claig, think youll enjoy this read.

www.gatestoneinstitute.org/9372/trump-europe-anti-americanism

It has insight into newsheadlines around europe re Trump. Certainly the UK are not unique with our MSM. What the author misses though, is how widely acknowledged by the common people, what a load of croc the MSM are. Hes fallen down the same trap, in using it as evidence of anti-americanism, that MSM reflects the views of the people. Theyve not done that for years!!

Swedishedith.. the vox article is just a mash up, but I dont take it as anything to do with Jill Stein or anything. But snopes had something on it here

www.snopes.com/three-million-votes-in-presidential-election-cast-by-illegal-aliens/

The only thing Id say is, when snopes dug around, they couldnt confirm or deny. What MAY be interesting is that Trumps team may indeed now have the evidence to back it up. We know theres been a long standing issue of dead people on the voter roll, but its always been dismissed as its one thing to be on a list, but another to proove the dead person voted. If indeed this Greg Philips bloke did possess evidence on the Obamacare register, and someones got the evidence that linked that to the voter roll, then perhaps there is something in it. Or it may be nothing at all. Time will tell.

Defo one for Claig, would Trump, today, fire an unloaded barrell?

I was worried this might cause trouble, luckily not election turning..

About a week before the election Obama was quite vocal in getting illegals to vote. Basically said that noone was going to chase them up for it. This angered republicans and Democrats alike, though may indicate that Obama thought it was going to be closer than the media. He certainly didn't do much presidenting in the latter stages of the campaign, he doesn't the whole time campaigning and attacking Trump.

Quite how many illegals took his advice and voted is open to question and very state specific, many have strict id requirements.

Trouble is Obama isn't going to find out and admit subverting the system. Nor snopes, they've rather lost any reputation for impartiality they may once have had.

Just goes to show that the old American saying of vote early, vote often holds truer than you'd imagine!

I'll happily take your bet Chris. I very much prefer the nice boring anglophile with the Welsh wife. The national front may benefit from the Trump effect but I don't think enough of the French will hold their noses to vote for them. Frankly they are as likely to reject a supposed populist simply because the Americans have one. They are French after all.

Also the election is going to be a rejection of Hollande so the Conservative rather than the old left / far right /populist is more likely.

Outside of analytics I could never see myself backing any national front types. I can't imagine any problem requiring them as a solution.

Spin, do you have a link please to where Obama encouraged illegals to vote?

Trump seems to have got rather cross on twitter. He would look much better if he could retain a quiet dignity over it, with a single carefully worded tweet. Instead, he looks like somebody panicking.

I don't think he should be worried about a recount. When I looked at the figures, the margin was only small enough, IMO, in one state and Trump would still win.
Unless he is worried about something we don't know...
But I suppose losing the overall vote is simply too bruising for his ego, although, quite frankly, a president elected with a minority is always somewhat tainted.

Regardless, he was very disliked and still is by a large percentage of the voters. And he should be building bridges.
His winning speech wasn't written by him, and it shows as time goes by.

some analysts saying we were heading for nuclear war with Russia under Hillary, the bankers and the elites, and now all the storm clouds have lifted and peace is everywhere

A) peace is not everywhere. Have you read any news?
B) the scaremongering about nuclear war was part of the disinformation campaign against Hillary.

No. Obama didn't encourage "illegals" to vote.

What he actually said was that legal citizens with undocumented family members had nothing to fear from voting.

His words here together with the edited version that gave rise to the story:

www.mediaite.com/tv/fox-business-deceptively-edits-obama-interview-to-falsely-claim-he-told-illegal-immigrants-to-vote/

"I'll happily take your bet Chris. I very much prefer the nice boring anglophile with the Welsh wife."

Me too Spin, but having lined themselves up with 2 anti immigrant candidates, it kind of negates the whole racist white supremacist chanting element weve had to put up with over here. Theyre both going to be called racists. Fillon has snatched the ground Le Pen was targeting, a more centre right position.

Battling on similar ground, IMO, it indeed falls to the EU in/out question. Hence my wager on out and Le Pen, purely as a means to an end. She wont last long, but they have control over that as even the FN dont take on the French farmers!

Happy to send you a bottle though, yes hes a far more acceptable guy, and I suppose my only caveat would be if another candidate does indeed promise a referendum. But I cant see that happening. In up to their ears they are!

Interesting idea that criticism of Trump is anti-Americanism (who's trying to use blanket statements to shut down debate now, Chris? )

I can only speak for myself, but I'm a big fan of America. I know lots of Americans (with a range of political views) and they are all clever, nice people.
I have not been brainwashed by "msm spin" (although you won't believe me, will you?)

I despise Trump because of his policies, the things he says, the things he tweets, the way he has behaved in the past, and the people he surrounds himself with.

So Chris, just to make it absolutely clear, you are supporting Le Pen, because if you are going to have a right wing candidate, you might as well have a really right wing candidate?

Thanks for the link Kaija, I was wondering if Spin had heard something we hadn't.

Oh, and Turkey was never realistically going to be accepted into the EU any time soon. That was scaremongering.
Turkey would have to adopt and enforce all EU rules before joining (you know, that red tape you love to hate). Out of the 35 EU policy areas, in 10 years Turkey had only met the rules on one (science and research). Erdogan has made it even more unlikely than it was a few years ago.
Plus, even if they did manage to meet all requirements, their membership would be very easy to veto.

squishysquirmy The Gatestone Institute is right wing and anti-Muslim, and supports an aggressive US foreign policy.

I wouldn't read too much into it. Although apparently to some it is more "credible" than main stream media . Confirmation bias, anyone?