Trump vs Clinton Round 2. Bigger debate than the last one.

[claig]

Round 2, Monday morning 2 am UK time.

Will "the real Trump" show up?

How many of us has ever said we just grope men by the balls when they are attractive? Or that just go for a kiss regardless, and take men out to bed them when we are married or they are?

Not many women do this in our society. Those that do are considered to be slags and prostitutes (and are therefore marginalised to the outer regions of normal society). This behavior is not normal for heterosexual women. It is normal for men. If we want to change this, we have to change the belief that men are active, strident, testosterone-driven sex seekers and women are shy, retiring, feminine, quiet little things, particularly around sexuality. We are a long way from this, which is why we'll continue to see many variants of Trump but also crucially, why what he's done just won't be viewed as anything too bad. We'll hear lots of noise but there'll be few repercussions from this fallout.

This behavior is not normal for heterosexual women. It is normal for men.

Not in my experience, only for abusive twats.
But you're right that it's normalised, and just excused as men/boys being men/boys.

"Top Ben Carson adviser: He stands by Trump, recording 'is the kind of language that we hear in rap music'"

uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/top-ben-carson-adviser-stands-173910063.html

Normalised. Expected. We accept it. Some many even like rap.

Actually that's true about the rap. Maybe the new found horror of this talk and misogynist will make its way across all media fat chance

Wichester Things will only change when we stop viewing gender as cast according to the male subject-women object binary (so, that'll be at least another couple of years then...).

another couple of years uh huh

I've said it before but I really hate the sneering at Trump voters. They are not Donald Trump and they have real fears and worries and concerns. I wish people wouldn't be so dismissive of these millions of real people with real lives and real sorrows.

nauticant

As we say in my family, you can never hold a good Trump back.

Women do not accept this level of behaviour in a man as normal. The vast majority have higher standards.

I'm beginning to think that it has got to a stage where if Donald Trump came on stage this evening, pulled out a gun and shot Hillary Clinton dead, some of his supporters would continue to defend him.

Just found this, from last May:

Crossing the Line: How Donald Trump Behaved With Women in Private. Interviews reveal unwelcome advances, a shrewd reliance on ambition, and unsettling workplace conduct over decades.

"Temple Taggart, the 21-year-old Miss Utah, was startled by how forward he was with young contestants like her in 1997, his first year as the owner of Miss USA, a branch of the beauty pageant organization. As she recalls it, he introduced himself in an unusually intimate manner.

He kissed me directly on the lips. I thought, “Oh my God, gross.” He was married to Marla Maples at the time. I think there were a few other girls that he kissed on the mouth. I was like “Wow, that’s inappropriate.”

–Temple Taggart, 1997 Miss Utah USA

Mr. Trump disputes this, saying he is reluctant to kiss strangers on the lips.."

Or not, it turns out.

Corkie Women may have higher standards but we do accept it. We accept it in our music (rap lyrics and videos), films, advertising, at work. When was the last time you saw a protest march against rap videos or the objectification of women in adverts? Granted, it's about a million times better here for women than elsewhere in the world, but we do still live with a level of acceptance of objectifying and sexualising behaviour from men.

People aren't really voting for him (how could they? He's utterly vile). This is, as somebody said above, a David and Goliath battle, a last chance saloon to stop the madness of rampant globalisation and all it brings, unfettered capitalism and thus inequality, and a slow constriction of free speech.

Donald Trump is the very definition of a philistine. It's more than a little ironic that he would cast himself in the role of David.

It is normal for men.

What utter rubbish. It is not normal for men. It is normal for sexually abusive men.

There is some bizarre obscuring in plain sight going on here. The real problem with Trump's comments is not that he views women as lumps of meat, it is that he sexually assaults them, or at the very least he was happy to do so in the past.

It is not bants. It's not normal locker room chat. Trump is talking about criminal acts. But somehow most of the discussion in the media has been glossing over this. The BBC don't seem to want to come out and say this but instead just refer to obscene language. At least The Sunday Times had guts enough to refer to it as what it is.

I'm reluctantly getting used to the post-fact media and politics we are presented with but when someone like Trump admits sexually abusive behaviour and it is presented as bad words and nothing more I start to wonder what on earth is going on.

Women may have higher standards but we do accept it. (...) we do still live with a level of acceptance of objectifying and sexualising behaviour from men.
We don't, really. Some do. We have been fighting it for years.

People aren't really voting for him (how could they? He's utterly vile). This is, as somebody said above, a David and Goliath battle, a last chance saloon to stop the madness of rampant globalisation and all it brings, unfettered capitalism and thus inequality, and a slow constriction of free speech.
The problem is that, what he is makes it unlikely that he will be the champion that people hope for.

And, BTW, he is for the party (and his policies support this too) that is for unfettered capitalism and inequality. Lower taxes, less welfare, just support business, get people jobs (ignoring those that can't work), is pure capitalism.
Plus, he's for constriction of free speech. Have you listened to anything he has said?

The problem is that, what he is makes it unlikely that he will be the champion that people hope for
This may well be the case. However, his voters may be thinking 'get him, get him out, get someone sensible in', much like the GE in the UK (get Tories in, do Brexit, get someone sensible in'.

Capitalism (within nation states) is not a problem as long as we believe in the efficient market hypothesis (in this format, capitalism can deliver an unprecedented quality of life to many more people than any other economic system) but unfettered, the kind practiced by globalists is (a problem. It results in a two-tier system where many ('global citizens') supply the labour even more cheaply than they would in a nation-state-type model) for the swollen, bureaucratic and extremely wealthy global elite at a huge cost to quality of life.

It is not normal for men. It is normal for sexually abusive men.

Can I just say, a lot of the left wing who are up in arms about this (Guardian I'm looking at you) were active in covering up the Cologne assaults on women. Hypocrisy of the highest order.

Here's a revolutionary thought for you. Why not consider what Trump has done just within the context of what is right and what is wrong?

If you do this without obsessing over "what about this separate matter, what about that separate matter?" you might find your way through to a rational view without excess difficulty.

Winchester - agree.

Also, one final point: Capitalism does not equal Marxism. Capitalism can be a a good thing, if done well. It is not necessarily a pejorative thing.

Capitalism does not equal Marxism.

Did anyone think it did?

a lot of the left wing who are up in arms about this (Guardian I'm looking at you) were active in covering up the Cologne assaults on women. Hypocrisy of the highest order.

Were they really, though? There have been long threads about it. And this is not the place to discuss it.

This type of argument diverts from the focus that is whether Trump was right or wrong to speak like this and to actually act like this.
And if he'll make a good president or not.

Trump is not part of the Washington DC establishment, he's not a politician, so he is going to be hated. Whether democrat or repub, all these politicians hate outsiders.

They hated Farage because he's not a Westminster MP.

It doesn't help that he's hateful and proud to.

'Insiders' hate Farage because he's a pathologically dishonest pub bore, who manages to persuade a significant minority of people to vote for him by conjuring up a 'halcyon days' vision of the UK which has never existed. He should be a laughing stock, but politicians are so despised by the general public that Farage is a welcome change.

Trump is essentially the same ^^

This type of argument diverts from the focus that is whether Trump was right or wrong to speak like this and to actually act like this.
And if he'll make a good president or not.

He is totally and unequivocally wrong to speak like this. There can be no debate about that. For someone in his position, it's insurmountable. However, whether this will floor him is another issue altogether.

Yes they were Lweji. Even Mumsnet never put nine threads of a thousand posts each on trending. The Guardian and most mainstream media just looked away. Posting Robert de Niro's video really doesn't make up for it.

Mind you I never got over The Guardian's betrayal of Sarah Tisdall.