Trump vs Clinton Round 2. Bigger debate than the last one.

[claig]

Round 2, Monday morning 2 am UK time.

Will "the real Trump" show up?

And there's more:

While many of his pronouncements are outlandish, he is staking out opening bids to negotiations with foreign countries and Congress. The details of his positions on trade, much like his positions on the economy (consolidating five individual income tax brackets into three), immigration (making Mexico pay for the wall), and foreign policy (requiring that NATO allies pay more for collective security), are not firmly set in stone, even if the broad directions of policy have been decided.

Trump has made clear that much of what he threatens is exactly that: threats that will be used to extract better deals for America.

Or, "I want to write an opinion piece supporting Trump, but I can't get to the end without admitting that the things that come out of his mouth are bollocks".

This is a good post from a Guardian reader explaining the basis of Trump's support:

"The liberal media are playing the wrong hand casting him as a neanderthal (even if he is) because such a tactic only galvanises his supporters into believing Trump is being treated differently given the many examples of other politicians who have done and said similar things. The hysteria around Trump is largely a reflection of the deep insecurities around Hillary as a credible opponent."

The fact is that under obamacare premiums have gone through the roof for everyone. It is an awful program. We see many more restrictions around emerging treatments. Disabilities such as autism falls under mental health, therefore behavioural and there is no coverage. Many doctors are forced into not accepting insurance because it limits what they can do as they are not paid enough. We see this all the time with therapists for our son. So many kids get to the point of being diagnosed with autism and then the treatment plan falls apart because the family are totally reliant on the school district to pay for therapy. The school district don't have the money so the kid goes without.

Also, HC has stifled debate and her policies are vague as they are intertwined in her speeches. What I have heard scares the crap out of me. We don't need open borders, we don't need more open trade agreements and we don't need another war. The fact remains that we have a huge issue in America with our poor communities. They are falling apart and have been falling apart for decades. Before we do anything we need to sort that issue out first. Those communities need education and opportunities in the form of jobs.

Immigration has lowered wages and will continue to lower wages as it continues unchecked. We don't actually know who we have in the country when people enter illegally and planning for services such as education becomes extremely difficult. To say immigration doesn't lower wages demonstrates the ignorance of our politicians and its why they are not worthy of serving office.

I spoke to a lady on my flight over and she made a good point that Trump has the right ideas about what needs to change but he has such a horrible delivery you can't elect him. I think that is why I am struggling with who to vote for. I agree with his basic ideas but I think building a wall is awful, we should just deport anyone here illegally. I think the rhetoric around women to be just weird considering his daughter is the one being groomed to take over the family business and so many women are in positions of senior management in his company. I also think we need law and order but that certain policies need to change. I don't know what the answer is on that one but as a nation we need to have that awkward conversation. Finally we need to get ourselves out of debt.

The hysteria around Trump is largely a reflection of the deep insecurities around Hillary as a credible opponent.

It seems like it to a large part. But it's interesting that it's mostly men who vote for him.
And this is the first ever female to have a chance at the Presidency. There's a reason for that.
A large percentage of voters in some regions will always vote Republican because they feel it represents their values better. They would never vote for a Democrat and will vote for any Republican.
Same for many Democrats.
So, swing voters, I'm sure there will be those who want to break away with the same as usual, those who feel like there are problems and are always likely to vote for any alternative to those in power at the moment. But then you have those who look at the two candidates more objectively.
Hillary is a more reliable candidate and for the average Republican voter, strong Republican Houses can keep her more lefty policies in check. As usual.
I don't think Trump will be able to deal with even a Republican Congress in better terms than Hillary.

And as I said earlier, this election would have been ripe for GOP. Change of party, a woman candidate and one that is disliked and carries the heritage of her husband.
It should have been in the bag for the Republicans. Trump has spoiled it for them.

Trump is being treated differently given the many examples of other politicians who have done and said similar things.

Which other politician sends deranged tweets in the middle of the night? There is a point when you have to call a spade a spade.

And as I said earlier, this election would have been ripe for GOP. Change of party, a woman candidate and one that is disliked and carries the heritage of her husband.
It should have been in the bag for the Republicans.

Completely agree.

Yes it's not the establishment (apparently made up of Blair, and well everyone who is not farage apparently) who have somehow made trump look unelectable. Trump has achieved that all on his own. Clinton should have been easy to beat but this genius man of the people has messed it up.

Want2b Thank you very much for your post. I was asking about Obamacare on this thread yesterday, because I've heard several Americans on UK radio all saying that although more people may be on the plan, the premiums are high and certain conditions are excluded.

If I was caught up in a hostage situation, I would want the meanest, bad-ass, mother f**r expert in covert ops to come and rescue me. I would not care that in RL he may be a really difficult and obnoxious guy, several ex-wives, puts it about, and hates kittens. At that moment, he would be the man for the job because that chap over there, the one who I feel I would like tremendously personally & politically, with a stable family life etc does not have the attitude to shoot the bad guys and rescue me.

'And as I said earlier, this election would have been ripe for GOP. Change of party, a woman candidate and one that is disliked and carries the heritage of her husband.
It should have been in the bag for the Republicans'

No because the people have had it with 'career politicians' and the status quo and RINOs (Repubicans in Name Only). Listen to the excellent BBC Newsnight report on Trump fans in Youngstown Ohio. One woman says "we need drastic change", another woman says "we have had the same "career politicians" doing the same things" and now we need change. The black barber who voted for Obama says, we need change to give a chance to someone new even if it is just for 4 years to see if he can change things.

Trump is the change candidate, Hillary and the Republican RINOs are the corrupt establishment status quo. Just like in the UK where we beat the Establishment over Brexit despite all that they could throw at us, in America a change is coming and it is going to be yuuge and it will change the world for all of us over here too. It is the end of the corrupt establishment, the start of rule of, for and by the people. It is a revolution.

As the Chinese woman, Ying Ma, writes in that excellent article

"Trump Is Leading a Political Revolution

I believe this country needs bold change, not more of the same. Trump has promised to deliver.

Citizens across this country have placed their faith in this revolutionary candidate, despite his flaws.

Hillary Clinton may think we are deplorable, but we are ordinary Americans who believe the country deserves better than business as usual.

In this election, we have proudly joined the political revolution that Trump has inspired, and we are not asking Hillary, or anyone else, for permission."

www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/10/12/im-asian-woman-and-proud-trump-deplorable.html

Rock'n'roll.

They will throw everything they have at him in the last 30 days, but just as we beat them over Brexit and now some of their leading lights are relegated to the back benches or have gone from politics, Trump will beat them in America and some of their faces will be gone from TV.

If Obamacare is a problem the Republicans and the democrats have 4 years to find other candidates. In the mean time it would be quite nice to keep the free world ticking over and elect somebody capable of forming a sentence.

He can certainly talk the talk, and he has managed to persuade a lot of people to lend him money

I don't know why you are so surprised - that's what happens in business all the time. I've worked on projects where various interested parties invested their money, like the making of an independent film or building properties. You either make a profit and split the proceeds, or all participants make a loss. Standard Operating Procedure.

Claig - I remember MN pre-Brexit and the furious postings of Remainers who were not just members of the public, but hired and paid to post against Brexit on social media.

I don't know if they did that and have since disappeared from MN after they failed in their task or not. But whatever happened, the Establishment failed to frighten and shame and stop the people and it will be exactly the same in America with Trump. They will release polls that Trump is finished, that he should drop out, they have siad "for the sake of his family" he should drop out now as they try to intimidate him and save themselves. But they have never come across anybody like Trump. he is not a "career politician" like them, he is a businessman and he means business and he is taking the corrupt corporatocracy down and all of its servants with it.

I read somewhere recently that Hillary wants the White House but Trump wants America. Based on their behaviour, this is an astute observation. He has very obviously rejected coaching, training and tutoring on how to 'win' the White House. He's not interested in the White House. He is interested in his country.

And how very dare you dismiss Mrs Slocombe. I leave you with one of her finest:

“I hope this isn’t going to take long, Captain Peacock. The last time I was late, a fireman had to climb out of my bedroom window and risk his life on a narrow ledge tryin’ to grab hold of my pussy.”"

As I said on another thread. I believe Clinton and Trump are in cahoots to have the worst campaign ever where all they do is talk about he said, she said, stuff that was said and done years ago and black propaganda to avoid talking about the real issues and policies.

One is as bad as the other

southallgirl he lost all the money.

Donald Trump failed spectacularly in the 90's because of incompetence and bad business decisions. He has been bailed out again and again by his father.

He has made money for people who invest in reality TV shows, but so have Kim Kardashian and the contestants on 'I'm a celebrity'. Clearly many people buy the 'Apprentice' Schtick, but that is all it is - television.

I remember MN pre-Brexit and the furious postings of Remainers who were not just members of the public, but hired and paid to post against Brexit on social media.

it's at this point that this thread must be leaving the world of reality and entering the world if performance art.

Hilarious to make light of the serious sexual offences alleged against Trump.

Today bringing news that he purposely spied on teen beauty queens gettting dressed and sexualised a 10 year old.

Trump's current wealth is wildly inflated by the value he allocates to his "Trump" brand.

I imagine that's taken quite a beating of late.

'And as I said earlier, this election would have been ripe for GOP. Change of party, a woman candidate and one that is disliked and carries the heritage of her husband.
It should have been in the bag for the Republicans'

No because the people have had it with 'career politicians' and the status quo and RINOs (Repubicans in Name Only).

To start with, what you just wrote doesn't challenge what I wrote.
In fact, it agrees with me.
People want change. Trump is supposed the candidate for change. Yet, he's not ahead of Hillary by miles. Perhaps because most people who do want change and those who want a credible candidate don't buy into Trump.

Also, Trump is the ultimate RINO.

Look at his opinions and friends pre-election.

'Yet, he's not ahead of Hillary by miles'

Because the entire world's media are doing their utmost to stop change and stop Trump, but on Nov 8 we will see the real revolution as the polls will be proved wrong and Trump wins a landslide as Scott Adams, Dilbert creator, predicted.

Not at all, merrymouse. It was pointed out to me by a few people who use social media all the time (not just MN) and I believe it was true.

'Also, Trump is the ultimate RINO.'

Very good point. I never thought f that. Yes, but he is a RINO in the good sense because he is unlike Jeb Bush and the rest of them.

Trump is actually an 'Independent' rather than a Republican.