Could somebody explain why Corbyn shouldn't be voted for as Labour party leader?

[Myturnnow4]

I've listened to people argue this, but haven't heard a reasoned argument yet. The main criticism appears to be, "he's on the left" but don't go on to explain why that in itself is a bad thing.

Lasttoknow, I confuse myself sometimes. And please don't mention the conviction That is in the past, it was a mistake, it's history, there is no need to bring that up.

Without any major misstep or change in the political landscape, these people will vote Tory again in 2020.

The on dit in the Labour party as the rubble was being cleared in 2015 was that 2010-15 was a bad time to be in office as there would be lots of economic difficulty, the coalition would be unstable, nay fissile, and all Labour had to do was keep their nose clean, avoid saying anything too committing, punt everything off to the Jon Cruddas' policy review that proved to be a complete waste of time as such of it that wasn't incomprehensible crap was ignored anyway and roll into power in 2015 on the back of public distaste for the Tories helped along with a couple of complete fuckups that they've made. The Tories would have cleared the economic decks and taken the hit, so Labour would then have five easy years in office on the back of that with recovery in the air.

That worked, didn't it? And so, as you point out, goes any "of course it'll be different in 2020" stuff. This is a competent government. For about 70% of the population, they're OK. The other 30% aren't enough to win an election. What Corbyn wants to do is to excite the 30% so that they all vote, and they all vote for him. Which is great, but unfortunately won't win an election.

Waiting for Tory governments to fuck up is a mugs' game. They do it very occasionally, such as the poll tax, but they are surprisingly good at avoiding bear traps. Waiting for them to fracture is also a mugs' game, because usually they are utterly brutal in dealing with it (Labour completely failed to displace election-losing Brown, while the Tories got another five years in office by defenestrating Thatcher). You defeat Tories by having better policies and by appearing more competent, bearing in mind that they are in the manner of cockroaches surviving nuclear war extraordinarily good at naked, shameless politics. It's hard, which is why only three Labour Prime Ministers have ever won a working majority and served out a term as Prime Minister.

The on dit in the Labour party as the rubble was being cleared in 2015

there are about 300,000 Labour party voters in the election. considering it is only £3 to get involved anyone who cares will be included. Even if all of them are corbyn fanatics, that is 0.5% of the electorate.
No-one cares.

No. It's Tories registering.
Maybe left wingers but only Tories that I know. In swarms.

I hope he becomes labour leader if it makes labour unelectable

There have been lots of people from 'other parties' joining. Some Tories, greens, TUSC, UKIP, expelled members trying to rejoin.

Apparently they have weeded some out, but I'must sure there are many thousands that they haven't

*I'm sure. Stupid phone

Corbyn could win an eletion with his policies as they're supported by the majority of voters. Nationalisation of the railways and utilities are supported by even the majority of Tory voters, and his QE to build infrastructure instead of using it to prop up banks is what should've been done in 2008 and is entirely sensible now, as it puts money in the hands of workers who will spend it and get our consumer led economy moving again.

Corbyn is making politics interesting to young people, and judging by my Facebook feed most of them will vote Labour should he be leader and stick to his stated policies.

#JezWeCan.

judging by my Facebook feed most of them will vote Labour should he be leader and stick to his stated policies

The problem is with this though, is falling into the 'echo chamber' trap like people did over the GE and indy ref etc.

Many people on my feeds who are Labour supporters young and not so young are saying they are not sure they would continue to do so if he was in charge.

When I joined Labour Party I had to affirm that I was not a member of another party. Is that not true for the Association members, If tory party members do they bald face lie in order to join?

Not sure it is the same for affiliate members tbh.

Also it wasn't just 'the tories' as pointed out. All party affiliations have been 'caught out' including UKIP, Greens, TUSC and old expelled Labour party members that tried to rejoin.

This can'take on this occasion be dropped only at the Tories door.

LK: 'Any one but Corbyn'.

How scared can they get. haha

Corbyn could win an eletion with his policies as they're supported by the majority of voters

As 1983 proved, indeed, when Labour swept to victory on a very similar manifesto.

No, wait...

Times change Pneumometer

Yes, indeed, times have changed since 1983: union membership is a fraction of what it was, industrial employment is a fraction of what it was, vastly more people identify themselves as "middle class" and vastly more of the population are owner-occupiers (both correlated with voting Tory) and the current Tory party is not remotely that of Thatcher. And (for extra fun) people will typically be retired for 20 rather than 10 years, so there is a vastly larger pool of people over 65, where the Labour vote requires a microscope to find and people are much less likely to alter their voting habits. Which of these circumstances make you think that a party with a socialist manifesto is more electable than 1983?

Hard political truth: the vast majority of the population don't give a shit about the bedroom tax, aren't affected by zero-hours contracts, think immigration is a bad thing and think people on benefits are mostly scrounging. Of people who actually turn out and vote, as opposed to talking on Facewittertagram, that goes double. These views are horrible, and there is a strain in Labour that thinks the party is better off simply ignoring these nasty people; it is, however, impossible to get elected without speaking to those facts, and the Tories are doing a vile good job of it.

Also, based on the posts on this site prior to the general election, there was going to be a Labour landslide and a UKIP wipeout, with plenty of Green support.
The problem with your twitter feeds and facebooks is that you choose who to follow/have as friends and these people think like you, re-enforcing your position.
JC may win the leadership vote, but not an election.

Also, based on the posts on this site prior to the general election, there was going to be a Labour landslide

Political echo chambers are the bane of real politics.

I luffs Claig.

The faux-shite Guardian can piss off and so can corporate Y.C

'Hard political truth: the vast majority of the population don't give a shit about the bedroom tax, aren't affected by zero-hours contracts, think immigration is a bad thing and think people on benefits are mostly scrounging. Of people who actually turn out and vote, as opposed to talking on Facewittertagram, that goes double. '

Yes that is why they won't vote for Cooper, Burnham et al and ddn't vote for Miliband. They won't vote for Yvette Cooper's number one issue, Sure Start. Polly Toynbee doesn't get it, this is what lost the Labour Party the election

"This isn’t religion, it’s about how to save Sure Start, abolish the bedroom tax, restore tax credits, stop savage benefit sanctions that send families to food banks. I hear many who have given up on winning, with a Jez We Can badge as an identity symbol, who I am, what I believe, where I belong.

But there just aren’t enough Greens and non-voting young for Labour to win a majority under Corbyn. Ukippers won’t back his migration stance. How can he enthuse at least some who voted Tory last time?"

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/13/corbyn-labour-leader-not-credible

But what they wll vote for is free universal childcare, free lifelong learning and no tuition fees, nationalised railways, energy companies and banks, free social care for the elderly without needing to sell their homes to pay for it, cheaper housing, more employment and higher-paid jobs, a National Investment bank, a clampdown of bankers and investment in manufacturing, clampdown on corporate tax evasion etc etc

The public won't vote for robotic machine politicians spouting Sure Start mantras but they will vote for a breath of fresh air - for Corbyn.

Those of us who vote Tory are behind Corbyn for leader all the way as it means the Tories will have 10 years in power and the poor and others in this nation will be all the better for it.

But what they wll vote for is free universal childcare

Affects a small proportion of the population.

free lifelong learning and no tuition fees

Affects a small proportion of the population (hint: racking up OU modules in retirement is nothing like as popular as the middle classes think)

nationalised railways

Affects a small proportion of the population (commuters in the south east overestimate their influence) and a large proportion of long-distance commuters work in the finance sector in London, who won't want nationalised railways if you're also nationalising...

energy companies and banks

Nostalgia for nationalisation isn't a thing, anyway.

free social care for the elderly without needing to sell their homes to pay for it

Fuck off people who rent, we've got a policy so that the already rich (it's not about the elderly having to sell them, it's about their children getting bigger inheritances) get richer. And as this will almost certainly be funded by increased inheritance tax, it's hard to see who actually benefits long term anyway. Why is allowing the children of rich property owners to keep more of the value of their parents' houses a socialist policy?

cheaper housing

Just like that! And won't that devalue houses that are already paid for, thus making policies about allowing people to inherit more still more confused?

more employment and higher-paid jobs

Just like that!

National Investment bank, a clampdown of bankers and investment in manufacturing

Nationalised manufacturing! It's 1985 again!

clampdown on corporate tax evasion etc etc

Which the Tories will say as well.

So, a mixture of niche policies, policies the Tories can easily match (announce anything on elderly care, the Tories will match it) and stuff that will have people high-fiving in echo chambers. Fantastic. Tory landslide.

What we also have is a society in which the rich have got richer and the poor, poorer. That doesn't sit right with many people from all walks of life. Labour weren't so far behind the Tories in terms of voting numbers that they could reclaim those voters who left to go to other left-leaning parties. The population may be aging - but it's a poorer population coming up behind the baby boomers, and they won't be quite so willing to stomach a party which favours the rich.

What we also have is a society in which the rich have got richer and the poor, poorer.

But where the 80% in the middle are better off than their parents. The arguments about elderly people having to sell their houses are predicated on those elderly people owning houses, which is vastly more common than a generation ago. Which is why inheritance tax is now an issue for large numbers of people.

The population may be aging - but it's a poorer population coming up behind the baby boomers

Not in sufficient quantities to win elections. You should stop listening to the echo chamber.