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Politics

Could somebody explain why Corbyn shouldn't be voted for as Labour party leader?

710 replies

Myturnnow4 · 12/08/2015 15:53

I've listened to people argue this, but haven't heard a reasoned argument yet. The main criticism appears to be, "he's on the left" but don't go on to explain why that in itself is a bad thing.

OP posts:
SirChenjin · 14/08/2015 11:35

The middle are better off than their parents, or owning their own homes? Which age group are you talking about, precisely?

claig · 14/08/2015 11:46

'But what they wll vote for is free universal childcare

Affects a small proportion of the population.

free lifelong learning and no tuition fees

Affects a small proportion of the population (hint: racking up OU modules in retirement is nothing like as popular as the middle classes think)'

Grandparents care about their grandkids and about the costs that their hardworking kids are having to pay. They care about the future of the country and are sick of the metropolitan elite who can easily afford all this stuff, when they can't. With insecure jobs and changing technology and increasng automation, people need to reskill and change careers. They want a bright future and education is a way to better themselves. They are aspirational, they want to learn but they are sick of paying through the nose for it while the metropolitan elite can easily afford it.

'nationalised railways

Affects a small proportion of the population (commuters in the south east overestimate their influence) and a large proportion of long-distance commuters work in the finance sector in London, who won't want nationalised railways if you're also nationalising...

energy companies and banks

Nostalgia for nationalisation isn't a thing, anyway.

free social care for the elderly without needing to sell their homes to pay for it'

This is about rip-off Britain. We are sick of being ripped off by the metropolitan elite who can afford it all on their taxpayer funded salaries and expenses. That is why UKIP said they would scrap the rip-off parking charges in hospital car parks. Everybody is sick of being ripped off by these people who are paid out of our taxpayer money.

'cheaper housing

Just like that! And won't that devalue houses that are already paid for, thus making policies about allowing people to inherit more still more confused?'

Most people aren't rich. The metropolitan elite are and they will vote against Corbyn, but most people will see that he offers them and their children and grandchildren a much better future.

'more employment and higher-paid jobs

Just like that!'

Absolutely. QE for jobs, for manufacturing, not for bankers.

'National Investment bank, a clampdown of bankers and investment in manufacturing

Nationalised manufacturing! It's 1985 again!'

Absolutely. There is nothing wrong with nationalised industries if they are managed well. Kick the metropolitan elite and their Guardian mates out of all managerial roles and run strategic industries for the benefit of the people and the country. Employ decent people like Corbyn rather than the Blairite sharks.

'clampdown on corporate tax evasion etc etc

Which the Tories will say as well.'

The Tories will say it but they won't do it because they are probably funded by some of them at their black-tie dinners. The public have learned how to read spin. They know that the Tories, Blair, Burnham and Cooper are spinners and that Corbyn is for real.

'policies the Tories can easily match (announce anything on elderly care, the Tories will match it)'

No they won't because the Tories are just modernising image spin doctors. They don't care about the elderly, they just use them as a card against Labour.

"The health secretary, Jeremy Hunt, faces a growing backlash after quietly shelving a key Tory manifesto commitment to cap care costs for the elderly, as experts claimed that the policy fiasco has cost taxpayers up to £100m.

Hunt has announced that the plan to limit care bills from next year to £72,000 for the over-65s and for younger adults with disabilities has been delayed until 2020 – despite the fact it was trumpeted by the Conservatives in the runup to the general election."

www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jul/25/jeremy-hunt-backlash-axing-elderly-care-cap-policy

Corbyn will change all of this and the Tories won't be able to counter any of it.

It will be Corbyn and the people vs the metropolitan elite, the Tories, the Guardian and the Labour MPs.

If they offer 100-1 for Corbyn and the people, take it, because we are going to win.

squidzin · 14/08/2015 11:50

"Where the 80% in the middle are Better off than their parents"

Flabbergastingly Untrue !@

squidzin · 14/08/2015 11:52

pneumometer no idea where you get your stuff from but you have no sociological knowledge whatsoever.

Pneumometer · 14/08/2015 11:56

The middle are better off than their parents, or owning their own homes? Which age group are you talking about, precisely?

Over 35. Which is plenty enough to win an election with, given turnout and demographics. The Corbyn arguments are all founded on suddenly getting people who don't vote to vote, and to vote Labour, in sufficient numbers to outweigh the alienating of a large portion of the population who definitely vote.

None of us know what the outcome of this will be with any certainty, but electoral equations based on several large changes happening at once are quite risky bets.

In the MN echo chamber, people aged 35 who can't afford to live in the more desirable parts of Hampstead while their parents swan around on large DB pensions from ending up as head teachers constitutes a political argument. The more general experience is, well, more general, and you need to address that to win an election. This is the "my parents voted Labour because they were poor but I vote Tory because I aspire to be rich" generation, and there's a hell of a lot of them.

We'll find out in 2020.

squidzin · 14/08/2015 11:56

Fact: We live in a society where all measurable economic growth over the past 30 years has benefited the wealthiest top 10% and everybody else has stagnated or dropped in real wages terms and increased cost of living.

SirChenjin · 14/08/2015 11:57

Pneu gets her/his knowledge from the (right wing) echo chambers, I suspect.

Pneumometer · 14/08/2015 11:59

no idea where you get your stuff from but you have no sociological knowledge whatsoever.

Perhaps looking at election results is more effective that sociology.

The last Labour manifesto to be (a) substantially socialist and (b) win a working majority was in 1945. Almost everyone who voted then is dead. Since then elections have been won by (a) Tories or (b) social democrat "soft left" Labour.

If your sociology says that 65 years of general election results can be ignored, then you are fitting facts to theory rather than vice versa.

Pneumometer · 14/08/2015 12:00

Pneu gets her/his knowledge from the (right wing) echo chambers, I suspect.

Ah, the Corbynite cry: active Labour members lose elections by not being left-wing enough.

SirChenjin · 14/08/2015 12:00

Over 35? Really?! I don't think so. Over 50s perhaps, but those of us in our late forties with baby boomer parents in their 70s and older don't enjoy anything like the wealth they have. Perhaps you're focussing on a very narrow demographic.

SirChenjin · 14/08/2015 12:01

No, not the Corbynite cry - the Pneu cry

SirChenjin · 14/08/2015 12:03

Since then elections have been won by (a) Tories or (b) social democrat "soft left" Labour

Not up here they haven't.

Pneumometer · 14/08/2015 12:03

everybody else has stagnated or dropped in real wages terms and increased cost of living.

Whatever. We'll find out in 2020.

Latest ICM Poll for the Guardian:

?????Conservatives 40% Labour 31% Liberal Democrats 7% UKIP 10% Green 4% SNP 5% PC 1% Other 1%

Pneumometer · 14/08/2015 12:05

but those of us in our late forties with middle-class baby boomer parents in their 70s and older don't enjoy anything like the wealth they have

Fixed that for you.

I have friends in their late forties whose parents were, respectively, miners and shipbuilders. How much better off do you think their parents are than they are?

claig · 14/08/2015 12:06

"Middle-class young 'will fare worse than their parents'

David Cameron's social mobility and child poverty inquiry to issue grim warning as debt and job fears create 'perfect storm'"

www.theguardian.com/society/2013/oct/12/middle-class-young-people-future-worse-parents

It will be the middle class who will sweep Corbyn to power. The middle class will ignore the BBC and their promotion of the Establishment's new favourite, Labour MP, Jess Phillips, who told us on Newsnight last night that she had never heard of Jeremy Corbyn until recently and that no one on the doorstep has even mentioned him and that he is not what Jess, the Esablishment's new favourite, thinks of as progressive. The middle class doesn't care what she thinks and the more they promote her, the more middle class voters will choose Corbyn. The BBC won't fool the middle class. We will bring Corbyn in.

The metropolian elite the Giuardan and the BBC are all in it together, but the working and middle class are together too, and we outnumber them, which is why we will win whoever they promote and however many speeches Blair gives.

SirChenjin · 14/08/2015 12:08

Oh well, if you've got friends Pneu then it must be true.

SirChenjin · 14/08/2015 12:10

Agree claig.

And on that note I'm away to the shops to spend my vast wealth.

squidzin · 14/08/2015 12:11

HA the accelerating wealth divide "Whatever".

Great Westminster reply pneumo.

Precisely your Westminster downfall.

RedRowanBerries · 14/08/2015 12:12

I'm not on Twitter nor is anyone I know.

I am Labour by instinct not Tory and don't know any avowed Tories. I don't know anyone who is in the least bit interested in Jeremy Corbyn.

I did vote Labour under Milliband's leadership, despite being underwhelmed by him personally. I am for council house building and looking after workers rights and giving young people a hand in life. I see a need for unions but that's balanced with a dislike of giving influence to Len McCluskey and his ilk who focus on a very narrow set of the workforce anyway.

And as for the Foreign policies espoused by the likes of Corbyn - you have got to be kidding. (Or living in a Twitter bubble.)

lotrben17 · 14/08/2015 12:37

I know a fair number of labour people excited about Corbyn - the same ones that adore the SNP and for the same reasons: the poorly defined sense that all wrongs will be righted and hard choices were wrong choices without any details about how much taxes need to rise to fund expanded spending. Tell us how much you are going to raise taxes by, and what you are going to do with the money, exactly. Don't tell me you're 'anti-austerity' etc. because it's morally wrong - fine, that's obviously a sentiment many can get behind but show me the detail. I wouldn't vote for Corbyn because I have no trust that he understands how to govern.

LumpySpacedPrincess · 14/08/2015 12:42

tethersend

Although I broadly agree with him on most issues, I do not want Corbyn at the helm in 2020.

This is why I want him to win this contest; I don't want any of the current leadership candidates at the helm in 2020.

I am almost certain that if Corbyn wins he will step down after a short period. This will allow another contest with better candidates to take place in time for the next general election.

This is exactly how I feel. In my political fantasy Corbyn wins and thwarts the tories at every turn, the tories have to return to the middle ground as they are being shown up for the hard right party that they are. 2019 Corbyn steps down and we have another leadership contest with some really good candidates, Dan Harris wins and becomes prime minister. Grin

RedDaisyRed · 14/08/2015 12:49

Most people could not afford their own homes in the past and many pensioners are on £7k a year pensions. Don't believe all you see in the press about the old being rich!

Never in British history have the highest earners paid a higher percentage of tax but the left don't like to mention that.

The left thankfully are moving back to cloud cuckoo land with Corbyn which is wonderful as it means 10 years of Tory rule which will be better for the country. Bring it on.

squidzin · 14/08/2015 12:50

RedRowanBerries. You must be intrigued by Miliband's total wipeout, followed by a metoric movement within labour to bring in Corbyn.

Trade union membership doubling in 24 hours? He is attracting people obviously outside of your circle. it's not imaginary it is actually happening.

RedRowanBerries · 14/08/2015 12:50

Nice scenario but it relies on an altruistic Corbyn who puts the Labour Party electoral chances first.

I saw the far-left at work in the 80s and this doesn't seem aLIKELY outcome.

squidzin · 14/08/2015 12:54

RedDaisyRed the highest earners paying so much in tax simply highlights the vast wealth divide.

I would rather live in a society where the wealthiest didn't pay so much more in tax, because I was earning substantially more to pay more tax myself.

Address exploitation, not taxation.