with the terrible history Jews have, why is Israel behaving like this?

[ssd]

I would have thought they would be showing more compassion for a repressed minority but the opposite is happening

and Netanyahu saying they told the Palestinians to leave because they were going to be fired on...where the bloody hell would they go to?? IF THEY COULD GO AT ALL

"The death toll so far has almost equaled the number of Muslim Brotherhood (the parent body of Hamas) members that Egypt recently sentenced to death.

'A judge at a mass trial in Egypt has recommended the death penalty for 683 people - including Muslim Brotherhood leader Mohammed Badie.

The defendants faced charges over an attack on a police station in Minya in 2013 in which a policeman was killed.

However, the judge also commuted to life terms 492 death sentences out of 529 passed in March in a separate case.'

Does anyone have a clue WTF Math is on about?? Is it just me? Non of his/her posts makes any sense to me despite reading them numerous times.

In all the concern for Palestinian children and the demagoguery on the subject of Israel, many seem unaware or unwilling to understand that Israel has the backing of Egypt in its current campaign:

'Hamas stands increasingly isolated, after its usual Arab partners – Egypt, Abbas and the Arab League – all pressed the group to accept a ceasefire on lesser terms. Diplomats said the group was more involved in this second round of negotiations, after complaining of being left out of talks earlier in the week. But its tough negotiating position highlighted its estrangement from the international community, even with normally sympathetic Arab governments.

'A western diplomat said: "The initial ceasefire proposal failed because it hadn't been cooked up with Hamas. Right now, Hamas are more involved. But unless Hamas are seen to get something, they'll probably keep firing. [And] the Egyptians and the Israelis are loth to give them anything."

'Hamas's diplomatic isolation was highlighted on Thursday evening, when Egypt's president, Abdel Fatah al-Sisi, issued a joint statement with Abbas calling for an "immediate ceasefire to spare the blood of the Palestinian people in the Gaza Strip and safeguard lives" – a call that echoed Egypt's earlier ceasefire proposal on Monday, which Hamas also rejected.

'Shortly after midnight, Egypt criticised Israel's ground attack – but only a few hours earlier, Egypt's foreign minister, Sameh Shoukry condemned Hamas's stubbornness. "If Hamas had accepted the Egyptian proposal, it could save the lives of at least 40 Palestinians," Shoukry said as Israel began its assault, in remarks quoted by Egypt's state-owned news agency.'

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/israel-attack-gaza-talks

Right. So because Egypt has reverted to being a military dictatorship, Israel is a-ok to murder Palestinians? Is that really your argument math?

You do realise those sentenced to death in Egypt did not receive anything like a fair trial?

Also, Sisi asking for a ceasefire is not the same as supporting Israel's actions in Palestine.

Justasecond, my post was in response to posts about casualties. I offered a little perspective.

GoshAnne:
No it is not my argument. And I believe I called the trials in Egypt mickey mouse trials.

My argument is that because Hamas behaves like a terrorist group, it is ok to fight fire with fire.
How would you propose to deal with terrorists lobbing rockets into mainland Britain from - let's say - Northern Ireland? Or planting bombs in Manchester, London, or other British cities?

In the context earlier this month of Hamas firing rockets into Israel in order to extort concessions from the Israeli government, Egypt and the Arab League made it clear that Hamas was not supported by Egypt or the Arab League. Hamas chose to go ahead with the attacks and rejected the very clear hint on the part of the Arab world that this was a stupid idea. The Arab world is just as happy to crush Hamas and its fellow travelers ISIS as Israel is.

And please no more 'where are Israelis supposed to go' they should have thought of that before stealing land and killing people. How dare they complain about Hamas. They created Hamas. They would crumble without Hamas. Hamas legitimises their brutality, their genocide. Hamas has become their reason d'etre.
A little hostile to Israel are we, Babbas? Hostile enough that you appear to have lost the capacity to reason, it seems.

Math your argument:

"My argument is that because Hamas behaves like a terrorist group, it is ok to fight fire with fire."

International law says otherwise, particularly as Israel is making no effort whatsoever to spare civilian lives.

"fight fire with fire"

mathanxiety are they letting everyone in the 'citizen's war room' eat magic mushrooms? That's the only way I can work out where your posts are coming from. Glad you answered the qu about where you stand though. Fire with fire indeed!!

I know quite a bit about NI too, GoshAnne.
It seems to me there is a lot about British 'peacekeeping' in NI that you are not aware of.

Does Hamas want peace?
If Hamas wants peace then why did Hamas launch rockets into Israel and reject Egypt's call for a ceasefire?

Israel apologists, you can make excuses or try to divert attention from Israeli atrocities all you like, the world is not buying it anymore.

Apartheid states cannot exist, the world will not allow it. Israeli regime will have to evolve and become worthy of being called humans or else the world will have zero sympathy for it. Enough of the victim status that Israeli regime loves, enough of the victim blaming that it loves to mete out. If it doesn't stop the genocide, it will create more and more enemies - and will only have itself yo blame. Israeli Oppression is unpalatable.

Does every way a government deals with terror have to imitate Israel's in every detail in order to qualify as repugnant, GoshAnne?

Math Does Israel want peace? If israel wants peace then why will it not give back the land that it has stolen?

Why did israel, during most recent peace talks, build settlements aggressively, kill 60 palestinians, detain 1000s of palestinians, destroy 100s of palestinian homes?

Math - I know plenty, thanks. I will ask you directly now, did the British Army carry out a widespread aerial bombing campaign in Northern Ireland? Yes or no?

Besides which, as you are familiar with Northern Ireland, you will be familiar with the term "whataboutery", which is exactly what your claims about Northern Ireland are.

The actions of anyone else, anywhere else, do not negate what the Israeli government is inflicting on the people of Gaza. The actions of Hamas do not justify what Israel is doing to Palestinian civilians.

This thread is about israel, not every other government. If you really want to talk about those other governments, then i suggest you start another thread.

There was a time when Britain fought against Jewish insurgency in Palestine... then Malaya, Kenya, Cyprus, Northern Ireland, Iraq and Afghanistan.

In NI the British army learned the advantages and disadvantages of internment without trial (suspension of habeas corpus), 'deep interrogation' and 'house searches' (17,262 in 1971; 36,617 in 1972) plus continuous monitoring of streets involving patrols by military personnel in combat gear bearing no-nonsense weapons among children playing on streets, saturation patrolling, sudden cordoning off of streets, and use of army snipers. And use of euphemism. Perhaps the best lesson Israel could learn from NI is how to keep it all nice and quiet.

But no aerial bombing, no.

Is aerial bombing the make or break element?
Does every way a government deals with terror have to imitate Israel's in every detail in order to qualify as repugnant?

The British army in Northern Ireland must have been doing something really wrong in order to have encouraged the bitter enmity of so many thousands of men, women and children in the early 70s and the planting of all those bombs in England.

I am sure you know exactly the lessons the British Army learned in NI, and why aerial bombing would have been superfluous. The Army was perfectly capable of producing the same effect (death, destruction, hatred) with their boots right there on the ground.

The 'whataboutery' can be applied to every single aspect of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, GoshAnne, including the latest chapter.

A good example is the post of Yruapita, 24-Jul-14 03:54:41.

And a good example of her attitude towards Israel is her comment that the 'Israeli regime' is not in her opinion worthy of being called 'humans'.
I believe the world has heard garbage like that before.
Would you care to comment on that particular sentiment of Yruapita's?

Yruapita, assuming you are British, 'those other governments' I am talking about are successive British governments from the late 1960s to the present, and the counterinsurgency measures they undertook and continue to take, were executed in your name and with your personal safety in mind.

Since some on this thread have been exhorted to stand up and say to the Israeli government 'Not in my name' I think it is important to point out that plenty by way of brutality has been visited upon people not too far from home on behalf of what I assume to be mostly British posters here.

O course I'm. Hostile to Israel math. Who isn't? They are inhumane and cruel. And before you accuse me of anti semitism please know that I am Jewish.

There is an absolute world of difference between loathing israels genocide and being anti semitic. HTH.

I wonder -- all these Jews worldwilde protesting against the massacre of civilians, are all hostiles, haters, anti-semites?

Only in the eyes of people like math.

I do find it remarkable that people use the word "genocide", when the Palestinian population is increasing all the time, and their life expectancy is higher than in neighbouring countries such as Jordan. The Israelis also built most of the hospitals in Gaza, and founded he University. If the Israelis' policy is genocide, they are doing it remarkably incompetently. It's also not consistent with treating loads of Gazans in Israeli hospitals, and running a field hospital for Gazans.

I suppose you could use the words "slaughter" and "mass killing of non-combatants" if it made you feel more comfortable.

I don't know a shorthand way of describing a blockade that lasts for years and prevents the delivery of hospital supplies, or the building of sewage, electricity and drinking-water utilities.

Isn't it believed the British security forces colluded with illegal unionist paramilitaries to bomb Monaghan and Dublin, killing 33 and injuring 300 people? Don't know who murdering those civilians was keeping safe, and in a different country. Also 85% of information loyalist paramilitaries used to target people like Patrick Finucane in the 80's was passed on by British security forces. Very much a player, not just a referee.

The papers won't be released by the British Government though and they wouldn't/won't cooperate into an inquiry in any way to this day or even agree to as assessment of files by an agreed assessor in Britain. Wonder if there is something to hide?

We're used to paramilitaries murdering and maiming and being able to pigeon hole terrorism. I suppose the difference is that a government was supposedly involved and working with the paramilitaries and that leaves a taste.

The world is full of hypocrisy. Maybe we shouldn't be surprised what governments do or which ally condemns what. What is outrageous and condemned outright as terrorism one place is viewed as national defence and legitimate depending on who carries out the action. It is not impartial.

babbas - Israel neither created Hamas (I know you mean that figuratively but Islamic fundamentalism can take 'credit' for itself) nor would Israel crumble without it. Israel survived before the Islamic extremists took power there for a good half century, against worse odds that it currently faces. It is closer to peace with its negotiations with Abbas on the west bank, which is its best bet for a peaceful two-state solution.

somewheresafe - "I would have thought that the children of palestine have far more pressing concerns at the moment than if Hamas serve their interests." Abbas has the lives of Palestinian children close to his heart. Abbas urged Hamas to accept a ceasefire prior to any ground invasion. You mock the idea of shades of grey. Obviously deaths of innocent children on any and every side is hugely abhorrent and black and white. The shades of grey come in to the debate when it comes to responsibility for those deaths. Hamas fired thousands of rockets, knowing it would attract a response. It keeps on ignoring the world's calls for a ceasefire, knowing its citizens will die. Abbas chose not to take that course of action for the citizens of the west bank. I think that how Hamas serves the interest of its people is a chief and pressing concern right now. It may mess with your neat categories that the innocent victims are governed by a barbaric regime but it undoubtely the case.

Yruapita - "If israel wants peace then why will it not give back the land that it has stolen?" Israel gave control of Gaza back to the Palestinians in 2005. Israel withdrew fully, dragging Israeli settlers forcibly from their homes. Gaza promptly turned the state into a military base from which to launch rocket attacks. Not surprisingly, Israel is reluctant to repeat the same withdrawal from the west bank, which is much closer to Israeli cities. Israel has repeatedly offered land for peace in successive, highly publicised, internationally-brokered deals over the years. If Palestine wants peace, and land, it can take up the offer. Sign here please.

"the land that it has stolen"

You are obviously omitting any thought of the occupied territories and the illegal settlements (colonies) in your reply.