with the terrible history Jews have, why is Israel behaving like this?

[ssd]

I would have thought they would be showing more compassion for a repressed minority but the opposite is happening

and Netanyahu saying they told the Palestinians to leave because they were going to be fired on...where the bloody hell would they go to?? IF THEY COULD GO AT ALL

Backinthering I would feel as the same as if it was my son who was murdered on the way home from schools corpse.

Wannabestressfree: The correct response to the poor boys who were murdered on the way home from school was for the police to investigate, track the killers down, put them on trial and (hopefully) imprison them - not to collectively punish an entire nation, including tiny babies and toddlers.

From what I've read, the collective punishment started right after the deaths - with house to house searches designed to terrorise ordinary people and multiple arrests, following by this massive military campaign we're seeing now.

You mentioned your friends on the kibbutz wanting to have a peaceful life and having their gates and lands bombed. I feel for them - I really do (I'm not being sarcastic btw.)

I'm afraid my former government used to say that too: "It's terrible - we only want peace but the ANC keeps launching these bombing attacks."

The truth was they just wanted black South Africans to put up and shut up with the crappiest deal - in land, education, human rights, you name it. That was their idea of peace.

This current Israeli government is not working for peace but is telling the world and its own people - the Israeli public - that it is. It is only working furiously to maintain a far right wing state's status quo.

Nelson Mandela:'We know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians.'

Interesting comment - can we all agree that Nelson Mandela certainly wasn't anti-semitic? He had several close Jewish friends, some of whom served in his government.

After his presidency, he travelled to Israel and offered to mediate between Israel and Palestine but Ehud Barak rejected the idea.

People keep saying that the situation with Israel and Palestine is complex but I can't see why. It's actually straightforward but there are vested interests who want to make it seem complex so that people are too confuzzled to see the actions of Israel (and the US) for what they are- which is oppression and ultimately genocide.
I struggle to see the complexity involved in denouncing and condemning unequivocally any regime that slaughter children as they play or the disabled, or those in intensive care, or attacks foreign journalists. It's very simple to say: this is an outrage and an inhuman act of state terrorism and all humans on the planet should greet it with revulsion and fury.

Yes springheeled I agree - it's not complex - just very basic human rights and international law.

Well that's true, I hope you unequivocally condemn, china- tianemen, Russia- Ukraine, Sri Lanka, Rwanda, Syria, libya, iraq, egypt, argentina, america in baghdad, etc, etc, etc

Or is it only Israel that gets you frothing?

Is Hamas deliberately aiming 1500 rockets just this month at civilian areas not also a breach of international law?

Because if you want Israel to stop retaliating, you need to understand that they have very good reasons for feeling threatened. Which will affect the judgement of some - not all - people.

I have 2 relatives. One was in a concentration camp - he just survived and died in 1946. The other lost his mother in a concentration camp. After the war, the former became a judge judging Nazis - and went out of his way to be scrupulously fair, because he had learned from his experience that he did not want to sink to the level of the Nazis, and wanted to build a society where the rule of law not power was what mattered. The latter was in charge of a group of Nazis and shot one supposedly 'trying to escape', because of what the Nazis had done to his mother.

Now I know which one I am proud to be related to (both my brother and cousin were named in his honour) but I can fully understand why the latter did what he did. People often say that Hamas fire rockets because they have been traumatised by their experiences - which may well be true. But if you want to resolve the situation, rather just point fingers of blame, you need to recognise that not everyone can raise themselves to the level of relative 1 - on either side - but these are the people we need round the negotiating table.

Explanation is not the same as justification; but blame without an understanding of context does not point the way to solutions either.

Yes John, I unequivocally condemn any human rights abuses. As to why I'm frothing, this thread is about Israel/Palestine not china- tianemen, Russia- Ukraine, Sri Lanka, Rwanda, Syria, libya, iraq, egypt, argentina, america in Baghdad.

I do think this Israel/Palestine gets more attention because the west feel complicit in handling it so badly.

Israel has the world frothing right now. And about time.

It has breached international law and basic principles of human rights for too long. It is one of the most destructive regimes in the world, destabilising a whole region, enforcing de - development on the indigenous population, and proud to be lithe oppressor in an apartheid situation.

Friends and family in tel aviv have been saying for years now that Israel will orchestrate it's own downfall when it's aggression becomes too much for the world to bear.

Re the kibbutz - one of the senior members of the kibbutz was on C4 yesterday extending an open house offer to the palestinians. An amazing guy who proves that people on both sides want peace. Shame on the government for committing atrocities and genocide in the name of Israelis.

topbanana1 - I also have a relative who was a Holocaust survivor. He could have come to SA and wallowed in his new found status as the favoured class. Instead he fought his entire life against apartheid and supported Jewish Voices for Peace on the Gaza issue - see jewishvoiceforpeace.org/.

Is Hamas deliberately aiming 1500 rockets just this month at civilian areas not also a breach of international law?

Yes it is and I'd rather they didn't but if they stopped "peace" would reign and it's a crappy "peace" for them.

Believe me I know how hard it is to raise yourself to the level of relative 1 but that doesn't mean we all shouldn't try.

A question to the apologists, do you condemn apartheid amd given that the palestinians have been unlawfully caged in Gaza do you believe that they have a right to resist? International law certainly recognises their right to resist.

Some very moving words by Dr gilbert from Shifa hospital yesterday. He said he was astounded at the bravery of the palestinians and every single person he had and spoken to had not spoken of revenge or anger, but of peace.

I hope so, because On mumsnet i dont see any threads (let alone four) asking why the Russians are behaving like this or about the child murdering Syrians, right now.

Seriously John, aren't you frothing about the children who have been killed? How can you not be? There is no excuse. Would you be frothing more if they were Israelis? Is it just because they are the 'other' group?

All my Jewish friends have sent their children on "tour" to Israel this summer, not one of them are worried about rockets being fired into Israel.

I want everyone to live in peace. Of course. Next to each other. Friendly neighbours. I am sad that the peace plans haven't worked. Sad that the last cease fire was shattered. Doubtful that netanyahus actions will achieve anything except for loads of English people going, "we're all Hamas now"

What do the Hamas apologists think?

Im gutted about children being killed and I don't see people as other. Why would you say that? You know nothing about me.

You didn't answer the question raised John. Do you believe an illegally caged nation have a right to resist or is self defence only available for non Arabs?

I am Jewish. I support palestines right to return. I am not a Hamas apologist and when they kill 4 israeli children on a beach I will be the first to condemn. Now where is your condemnation?

wordsmithforever - we all choose issues of highest priority to us personally to 'froth' over. The world is full of terrible injustices, wars and crimes. No one person can possibly protest about all of those. So it's a matter of priorities. I think that many people here argue that the Palestinians are clearly innocent and the Israelis guilty, because of the numbers - that the Palestinians are suffering more because more have been killed. But if you look around the world, far, far greater numbers have been and are being killed in other conflicts in other parts of the world.

So it is a fair question why you - and the Western media generally - choose to focus on this conflict rather than others with greater numbers of dead, or the dead more gruesomely killed. I don't know the answer, but it's interesting.

Personally, I spend far too much time and energy protesting a whole heap of things that really bother me personally - and where I feel I can add something. Of course I'm not happy with the situation there but I'd rather put my paltry efforts into trying to solve situations that either are easier to solve or that affect me very immediately. Which is why my efforts on these sorts of threads are usually aimed at making people realise that both sides are ordinary people - but with leaders that do some stuff that is not necessarily in the interests of their people - let alone the other side.

I think peace will come, if it does, from ordinary people recognising their common humanity, not the reverse.

Sorry John, you're right. I don't know anything about you. I apologise and that was a crappy thing to insinuate. I'm just trying to understand why you aren't condemning the deaths of children. I just don't get your pov.

Well I agree with you on that topbanana1. For sure both sides are ordinary people and I think both sides (ordinary people) just want peace. I don't think this particular right wing government wants peace.

As to why we're all so interested in Israel - well as I said earlier I think the west was complicit in the mess so it brings it to the fore. What else - my family is very interested in Israel because of the Jewish connection, and I think I'm frustrated that the world leaders are all acting like war is the only answer because Israel has to defend itself when there are other options (as set out in depth on Jewish Voice for Peace). And the recent events have been horrific. Those are my reasons.

spongeypop - you seem to have some seriously weird FB friends. if I were you, I would unfriend them immediately.

I also have several FB friends with kids on Israel tours and yes, they're obviously all worried. What parent wouldn't be?

None of the Jews or Israelis I know on FB express sentiments of hatred towards Palestinians in general (Hamas is not flavour of the month, I agree, but this is understandable).

You seem, in all your posts, determined to stir up hatred towards Jews/Israelis, that is based on entirely false premises.

Do your supposed FB friends know you feel this way? If so, why are these mythical people friends with you, as you don't appear to have anything in common and seem out to slander them at every opportunity?

Seriously, if you have friends who are so callous they don't care about their own children's safety and hate people they've never met because they live in a foreign country, then you've got really, really, really bad taste in friends.

Which quite frankly, calls into question your judgement generally.

I wouldn't be friends with people like this.

Fair enough, wordsmithforever, and I wish you luck in your search for peace in your own way. You certainly don't come across like one of the 'haters' on this thread.

Sorry, fwiw, I condemned it on the other thread. It's a terrible thing to have happened.

I believe in Israelis right to exist. Many people don't.

I think Netanyahu is a bloody nightmare (he's an argument against proportional representation that's for sure.) and I can't stand it when the fragile peace breaks but that's fine for me to say from a garden in England.

And there are many positive notes on this thread, too.

cleanmean's Dr Gilbert, who "said he was astounded at the bravery of the palestinians and every single person he had and spoken to had not spoken of revenge or anger, but of peace."

Or somewheresafe's kibbutz guy "extending an open house offer to the palestinians."

These are the people we need to be encouraging, supporting, and giving a voice to.