The EU. In or out?

[PetiteRaleuse]

If there were a snap vote tomorrow. In or out?

I really worry what would happen to employment law, human rights and health and safety if we left the EU.

Reuters says this morning that a poll carried out states that 47% of the public would vote to leave the EU, as opposed to 39% who would want to stay.

kat 'being a European' I take it you feel no affiliation to Germany then? As that's the flag next to your nickname, or whatever country you were born in?

Unlike Germany Britain's have not had to live under fascism, dictatorships etc; so many British people feel very different about the EU, we don't want to live under Communism or unelected dictatorship, that's what the EU want's to impose.

We've not had at the 'jackboots' on our heads yet, but I'm sure it's coming!

"we don't want to live under Communism or unelected dictatorship, that's what the EU want's to impose"

I think the biggest issue isn't so much what the EU is actually doing, but what people think it does or stands for.

Because clearly the idea of reimposing Communism or dictatorship is poles away from what the EU is about, and its Member States would find that idea deeply troubling for obvious historical reasons.

There is such a huge mire of misinformation about the EU, much of it so embedded in people's minds as the truth, that it would be virtually impossible to correct.

Though in the UK I think the British media is certainly to blame for this in part, the EU itself is very bad at communicating, despite its efforts. For some reason it rarely seems to hit on the right way to convey what it is doing to those people who are actually benefiting from it.

Of course, where EU initiatives are seen as successful, national governments like to take the credit. And where they aren't successful, the national administrations are quick to point the finger and shift any blame to Brussels. But that's politics, I suppose...

I'd agree with you. The EU is a very long way from communism or dictatorship and the British press scaremongering with its island mentality has a lot to answer for.

IN.

With bells on.

The more I've travelled around Europe the more I become aware of how much we get out of it; and how much our participation helps other European nations - which is to OUR advantage rather than at our expense.

I would however, keep the pound and associated fiscal independence.

IN.

In, in, in. I have benefitted so hugely from the freedom to travel and work across the EU. I've lived and worked in two countries. I'm not a millionaire, PPE member of the elite.
Fifty years of peace.
Millions of jobs, particularly in poorer areas such as the North East of England.
Lots of pro-consumer law. Cheaper phone bills and compensation from airlines who get things wrong and just two examples.
I would scrap the CAP and the CFP. I'm not a fan of Juncker.
But then again I don't like the bedroom tax or Michael Gove.

In. It needs some reforming - some of the rules that come along are plain bonkers and interfering - but overall it's a jolly good thing.

And more selfishly, it's why I can live here without having to apply for visas, etc.

The wee flags beside our names are the teams we are supporting in the World Cup. Nothing to do with our birth country.

In for me. I've lived and worked in a number of member states, and while it's an imperfect organisation, on balance it does much good.

A little known aspect of the CAP is the obligation to let fields rest a year in three or four. Can't remember the details. But was done in ancient times. It gives nature a time to refertilise. Helps the land. Of course one harvest or year in three is money lost to farmers. In the short term. But better for the land. That's why they get grants to let the field run loose occasionally.

Out out out! Can't stand the EU. I think it will collapse like a house of cards after we leave as well. Other countries just don't want to be the first to leave. There's nothing as regards employment law etc that we couldn't do ourselves, without paying out billions to unelected, unaccountable, thieving scumbag EU politicos.

Hattifattiner please can you explain your justification for scrapping the CAP?

cos it's crap!

Whilst I agree that we should remain within the EU, we are the only country that chooses to enshrine EU law within our own legislation. I often see it on these boards that leaving the EU would take us 'back to the 60's' in terms of health and safety legislation, equality legalisation and other forms of rights we have gained from the EU. That is incorrect. Actually if we repealed the European Communities Act 1972, we could be out of Europe but keep the legislation that we created within our own statutes. Therefore, we would retain all of the beneficial laws from the EU without being a part of it. That is the only benefit for the bonkers double law system that only applies to the UK because of our insistence to keep our legislative powers they way they were, despite the supremacy of EU law - no other country within the EU has that facility.

However, there are lots of competition laws in respect of trade agreements which British manufacturers would no longer be protected by if we removed ourselves from the EU. Therefore, I think for UK economy purposes, it would be better for UK manufacturers to remain in the EU, otherwise trade within the EU would be extremely disadvantaged against none EU members.

Hope this makes sense as it's late, and I'm off to bed now.

We need to remember that most of the common standards for business are not actually EU legislation but business across europe working towards common standards so they all have wider markets with decent standards. These standards make it easier for small and medium businesses to compete internationally. Large companies have the capacity to adapt to different markets but the common standards allow smaller companies to benefit from the wider market too.

The common market is an ideology, however there is EU legislation to promote this and can be found in Art 101 and 102 of the treaties of the TFEU.

However it is the idea that small and medium firms are able to work across the EU and large firms are prevented from monopolising the market which is one of the fundamental reasons which I believe that we should stay in.

I'm still in favour of staying 'in' but I do think we need to decide what we want for the long term future of the UK.

The world is changing and in fifty years time it will look very different. Countries like China, Brazil, India will be world players and with their population sizes and natural resources they will have a lot of economic clout.

Against that the UK if stood alone will be a unimportant little island still talking about the war and the empire.

Being in the EU gives us collective economic and political clout. But it does mean we will have to compromise on some things we don't like for the greater good.

I mean look at it another way. I bet there are laws set at Westminster that say.....Northern Ireland doesn't like. Or even Manchester.

Yes there are regulations which we don't like from the EU but how many of those would stop by leaving the EU? Answer: None.

Everyone sensible is still talking about the UK remaining a member of the EEA so we'd still have to implement all the rules. Just not help make any of them.

OK sure, we get to change some laws. Which don't we want? The Human Rights act? Actually I quite like having rights. The principles are great. It's just the way it's being interpreted by lawyers and judges I dislike. All those lawyers will still be here!

Working time directive? Again I quite like the idea that by law my employer can't work me to the bone.

Simply put we can get rid of EU laws but the reality is that they'd be replaced with just tweaked versions. And there's nothing to say the replacement laws would be better! They could be far far worse. RIPA anyone? That is/was an utter shambles.

As for the EU being unaccountable then yes some of the structure is a bit messy. Probably due to the fact there's had to be a lot of political compromises. Our own parliament is hardly the bastion of efficient government. But the way I look at it is that few of us bother to vote at EU elections. So how can we then complain that the EU is unaccountable!?!?!

Out. But I have always been willing to be swayed on this.
I would listen very carefully to both sides.

The one big thing in its favour has been peace.
There has been peace since we have been in.

The alternative of non peace makes me shudder.

So as you can see, I am by no means settled on this question.

Tp me it may come down to cost of EU versus peace.
And I would have to choose peace.

"The one big thing in its favour has been peace.
There has been peace since we have been in.

The alternative of non peace makes me shudder."

WetAugust said
"The EU will drag us into a war. They are meddling in the Ukraine crisis, which is antagonsing Russia."

and one of our leading politicians said
"the EU has blood on its hands over Ukraine"

The EU is an empire and us citizens have no real say in changing what it chooses to do.

An individual country would never dare risk war with Russia, but leaders of an Empire might.

"Our own parliament is hardly the bastion of efficient government. But the way I look at it is that few of us bother to vote at EU elections. So how can we then complain that the EU is unaccountable!?!?!"

But that is why we can vote to change it and kick out inefficeint or expense cheating MPs. We, the people, are sovereign and we can make change. But in the EU we, the people, can't make change. We don't bother to vote at EU elections because there is no point. There is nothing they can do. Apart from Farage, the MEPs are so unimportant that they rarely if ever appear on Newsnight, because even Paxman probably doesn't know who they are.

"So how can we then complain that the EU is unaccountable"

It is the other way round. We don't vote because it s unaaconable. It's not a real democracy. Even Cameron says things such as some of the appointments are stitch-ups.

This may be the wrong thing to say, but I sort of consider Europe as only going over so far Eastward iyswim.

Yes, that is what the people think, but not what our great and good think.
You have to understand the purpose of the EU and whom it really serves.

"The European Parliament passed a resolution in 2014 stating that "in accordance with Article 49 of the Treaty on European Union, Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine, as well as any other European country, have a European perspective and can apply for EU membership in compliance with the principles of democracy, respect for fundamental freedoms and human rights, minority rights and ensuring the rule of rights."

...

"Georgia's former President Mikheil Saakashvili has expressed a desire for Georgia to join the EU. This view has been explicitly expressed on several occasions as links to the United States, EU and NATO have been strengthened in an attempt to move away from the Russian sphere of influence"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_enlargement_of_the_European_Union#Azerbaijan

Eastern Europe is part of Europe, and was left to wither under communism by us at the end of WW2. There is a theory that they are now getting the recognition they deserve and that we owe it to them to welcome them back.

"The South Caucasus states of Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Georgia have been the site of much instability since the 1990s. Their EU membership would be conditional on the political assessment by the European Council about whether they are considered European. Nevertheless, all three states have been admitted as full members into the Council of Europe (like Cyprus) after a similar assessment process. Before the first official visit of external relations commissioner Benita Ferrero-Waldner to the three Caucasus states, it was stated that if she were asked about enlargement, she would not rule it out.[173] It is unclear as to when they may move towards membership, even though they are part of the European Neighbourhood Policy and are often referred to as part of "a wider Europe". Since their only land contact with European states is through Russia and Turkey, it is possible that they would only join after Turkey did so."

Wow. That could be why Turkey joining is seen as important by the United States.