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Politics

The EU. In or out?

140 replies

PetiteRaleuse · 27/06/2014 21:23

If there were a snap vote tomorrow. In or out?

OP posts:
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IndridCold · 07/08/2014 09:42

Out.

The EU has always been about a 'United States of Europe', a federation of former countries ruled by a central political elite in Brussels, they have no intention of giving us back any powers they will just keep on taking more powers away. They are already working on who is going to be the European Chancellor, who will decide fiscal policy in member states. It is bloated and undemocratic. It beats me why the Scots Nats want to join Europe if they win the Yes vote, they would be handing their new independence straight to the Eurocrats!

The Euro Fishing policy has been a disgrace that has almost destroyed the fish stocks in the North Atlantic, and shows no sign of changing.

The European economies are moribund yet our membership limits our ability to trade with the thriving world economies like India.

And loads more other reasons too.

I have just read 'Au Revoir Europe?' by David Charter and can recommend it, he was The Times Europe correspondent. Its not pro or anti, it just gives the arguements, but I was pro Europe before I read it, but am now anti. He reckons the UK will leave, and thar Denmark will too.

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mygreeneyedboy · 07/08/2014 11:07

In.

Most of the 'out' campaign is based on 'untruths', not to mention a populist campaign driven by illogical nonsensical politicians.

Myth no. 1: "Britain is a stronger out of the EU." WRONG. Britain has not been the world's strongest superpower since the turn of the 20th Century. You could argue that Britain came a DEPENDENT power from the end of WWII with the Tehran Formula guaranteeing that Britain relied on the balance of power within Europe and the US's support. Britain does not have natural resources in the same way that Norway does. Norway is not part of the EU because it can afford to be (did you know that Norway has no debt like us, and that we also have a population 30 times bigger?). Britain relies heavily on trade and investment: investment given because they are in the EU. Many people think Britain is one of the "big three": US, China and Britain. But Britain's actions overseas are irrelevant, we simply do not have the weight to dictate the international arena unless we do this through the medium of the EU.

Myth no. 2: "Immigrants are stealing our jobs" If an uneducated Polish man travels hundreds of miles and who doesn't speak English, who is only in the UK for work, steals your job - then you probably didn't deserve the job. Work harder. Competition makes Britain better, not sitting on your bum demanding a job. Immigration benefits the UK, there are various reports that prove this, unfortunately the Conservatives and UKIP choose to ignore them.

IndridCold - the EU is not a United States of Europe. Federalists would like it to have more qualities of that, but it is not and has not always been run by the political elite in Brussels. Spinelli would be jumping for joy in his grave if it was. Andrew Duff wouldn't have lost his seat if it was. For a vast amount of time the European Community started as a technocratic apparatus, controlled by the European leaders - De Gaulle hated federalism. The EU has pooled sovereignty not hegemonic sovereignty over the member states.
If Brussels in run by the political elite, why don't you vote to change your MEP to someone who will do some work in Brussels for good rather than not turn up for their job. Pick someone who will represent you in the EP, not someone who will not turn up - that isn't representing. It's exactly the same thing in the UK Parliament when people argue about a political elite.

Here is some good things about the EU:

  • Free trade!! Woop! Have you ever been to a supermarket in Norway? You can't get anything there. There is no selection, no choice. Food is extortionately high because of the tariffs imposed on foreign food entering Norway. Not to mention the fact that you would no longer be able to bring crate loads of wine back in the UK from France, if the case were the same. I don't have all the facts on me, but the majority of British firms agree that trade for Britain is better with us IN


  • Holiday laws: No more roaming. Did you know that due to the EU Commission, you won't have to pay extra phone charges when you use your phone abroad from 2016? It's already reducing now, personally I can't wait to see the full effects! Also, there are various laws that have made flying in the EU cheaper - not to mention you hardly need insurance for holidays in the EU as you can get treated in all hospitals in the EU.


  • Wales is reliant on the EU. Many people say how we give give give to the EU and receive nothing back. But Wales does. Next time you are there, look around Wales and see how many EU funded plaques you can find on buildings. You can't walk far without finding one. The EU is very generous to Wales.



Okay that is my incoherent rant over with. Having studied the EU in my degree, I understand that the EU is confusing and has it's faults. It's also really boring. This is why people do not feel connected. There are some serious issues that need dealing with. But they are not solved by us leaving, they are solved by us leading.

I feel so passionately about this. I would hate to see Britain leave the EU. To the point where I will give up my citizenship and move country if so. Britain without the EU is a history museum where you can visit an ancient empire that collapsed due to a populist moving and politicians pandering to populist thought.
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IndridCold · 07/08/2014 15:24

I have not said that there is a US of E, I said that that is the aim. A vote to stay in the EU is not a vote for the status quo, it will be a vote for complete political union with all laws and policy emanating from Brussels. I feel just as passionately as you do that I do not want that, and if that is where we are heading then we should leave. I think you are right about France, I don't think the French will take to closer political union at all, but that doesn't mean that that is not the actual goal of the Commission. I have no faith that Britain is capable of negotiating any meaningful repatriation of power.

When it comes to untruths, the biggest untruth of all took place at the time of the referendum in 1975, when Heath deliberately failed to mention the fact that joining the Common Market (as it was then) was not just a trade deal, but would involve political union as well. This means that the electorate of Great Britain have never had a say in whether or not they want to be a part of Europe on that basis, making us the only member state who have never had a proper referendum on whether or not we want to cede power over our affairs fully to Brussels.

We are one of the biggest net contributors to Europe, of course we pay in more than we get back, even with our rebate. We could leave and renegotiate our trade deals with Europe at a fraction of the current cost, leaving us plenty of our own money to spend in areas like Wales and Cornwall (where I live BTW).

Britain may not be stronger out of Europe (although I believe that in time it would be) but it will not be weaker. Norway is interesting because although it is not a member it has a EEA (European Economic Area) agreement so it has pretty much the same trading rights in Europe as a full member. Their paltry supermarket stock cannot justifiably be blamed on non-membership of the EU.

We will not be able to get around the table in Brussels to negotiate a stronger position because the voting rules are being changed to make it impossible for members who do not have the Euro to veto new policy. To give up sterling and join the Euro would be insanity of the highest order, but without doing that our power in Brussels is going to be drastically diminished.

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Isitmebut · 08/08/2014 14:04

OUT – from a non dramatically reformed EU.

mygreeneyedboy …..if you actually believe your own STAY IN ‘truths’, I can understand why you believe the OUT truths backed up by solid facts, are ‘untruths’ (what?). lol

Firstly, no one can deny that the current EU with 28 (whatever) governments and a small army of additional expensive bureaucracy in Brussels, Strasburg (wherever) is a cumbersome monolithic entity, that needs to oversee and control 28 different types of economies (large, small, barely existent), issuing new laws/red tape for all.

Next no one can deny via the likes of the Social Chapter etc, the hugely inefficient and expensive to run EU is looking for us all to work less hours a week, all have generous minimum wages and above, retire at 60-years old and have expensive cradle to grave State care – and why not, if that what this intra Europe trading ‘collective’ wants, what could possibly go wrong?

The Eurozone already has a European Central Bank and a ‘one interest rate fits all’ the hugely different economic size/structures, and a ‘one currency rate fits all’ Euro for those that adopted it, which basic logic tells that IF one interest rate and currency suited every countries economies, it would be a miracle.

So a partial solution has been for every country with different laws, taxes, benefits, pensions etc etc etc, to ‘harmonise’ them into the ‘collective’ and so what if that makes some country’s individually less or more competitive, it helps the EU bureaucrats to follow the member states better and make it easier to issue new bureaucracy and red tape. No mention of an EU Superstate, why bother the suspicious electorate with labels, when the whole this was happening via bureaucratic osmosis?

So pre 2007, there we have it, Europe was living the ‘collective’ dream, facilitated by a global economic boom for over a decade, every social objective seemed affordable, interest rates were at near record lows (especially for those new members who had only ever dreamed of borrowing at German government interest rates) and companies over taxed and over regulated, managed to do well DISPITE the ignorance of the EU and their individual governments, in understanding the massive competition within global trade.

Which government (or EU) was overly concerned there was a reason why the likes of China, with companies paying 1/5th our salaries, no limit on the hours of THEIR working week, and none of the additional costs of doing business i.e. government bureaucracy/red tape, employee social care expenses – could PRICE their goods at highly competitive rates, and were taking a growing amount of world trade at an alarming rate? None of them, we were living the EU dream, with the bulk of our trade amongst us mainly prosperous 510 million.

ONCE A MAJOR RECESSION HIT EUROPE, how many of those EU member states are NOW thinking about their huge annual government fixed costs, the weight on businesses shoulders of non competitive, inefficient, bureaucracy including employment costs/laws?

Currently even Germany who can rely on huge trade via a massive slice of trade/exports to the EU and the rest of the world, could possibly go back into recession, Italy is now entering its 3rd recession since 2007 - and France who similar to the UK in 2010 thought high EUesk Public Sector spending was the way to economic growth, despite then trying the coalitions approach, is forecast to have anaemic GDP for a year or so more and it’s unemployment rate that hit over 11%, will not go below 10% for that period.

SO WHY IS THE UK GROWING NOW, well unlike most other EU countries with less exposure to the fall in tax receipts from Investment Banking in the City, increased high street bank balance sheet growth/lending/consumption/debt, we had our major GDP hit around 2008 but kept our economy going with excessive government spending/debt, maintaining EUesk fat Quango expenditure, while allowing businesses/the Private Sector to collapse.

After 2010, by weaning the UK economic model off being an inefficient, bureaucratic mini EU and drove DOWN the costs of the Private Sector doing business, the UK is slowly becoming a SUSTAINABLE and balanced economy, hence our current GDP growth and 1.8 million new jobs.

BUT WHAT WAS THE EU’s ANSWER TO THE PROPLEMS OF AN UNWIELDY 28 NATIONS that still believes in the aims of ‘collective’, does not tackle the costs of government, agrees on little and relies on a ‘one size fits all’ approach – obvious of course, talk about FURTHER integration, but to what final solution, which bureaucrat would dare call it a Superstate?

So similar to the UK in early 2010, this blind bureaucratic EU ‘collective’, like the Borg, thinks the only way to sustainable (economic) world domination, is MORE OF THE PRE 2007 SAME, where the sheer weight of fat uncompetitive governance MAY still afford to look after the people of today, but if the Private Sector that supported those ‘nice things’ in a global economic boom is not given substantial help soon, the EU can not be the prosperous ‘collective’ they dream about.

So listen out for the socialist countries soundbites ‘we need to talk about job creation’ to solve the massive unemployment within the EU, as if all they do is ‘talk’ WITHOUT REFORM, the EU will be in a slow downward spiral of despair.

THE UK IS A TRADING NATION, but in early 2010 and still living the EU dream, we were doing more trade with Ireland than we were versus the combined trade of the mostly ‘emerged’ Brazil, Russia, Indian and China nations, with around 2.3 billion citizens between them –which after a global boom, was a ‘complacent’ national disgrace.

The City i.e. Investment Banking and Insurance, crosses all borders and although there will always be the need for those services, if the 2000’s taught us anything, it was that we can not rely on the substantial tax receipts to keep us afloat.

On that point, although our manufacturing halved from 1997 to 2010 - as the likes of China is becoming less competitive due to THEIR increased annual double digit pay increases etc, THE UK HAS A CHANCE with a lean government and low cost of doing business economy, to bring back those jobs ‘on shore’ we lost and others, especially if the EU competition’s bureaucracy and costs remain in place.

Conclusion; if the UK can be/remain a dynamic economy attracting businesses and creating jobs then we should LEAVE AN UNREFORM EU, but if we have a mini EU government that aspires to writing social cheques a cash cow Private Sector can no longer cover, we might as well remain with the good ship EU Titanic, and enjoy moving those deckchairs around for as long as we can. IMHO.

P.S. Re Norway - a small state, small population, oil wealthy, no 1970’s industrial shit/debts Norway you use is a bad example on many levels.

But re trade ‘choice’ is good, the Aldi/Lidl example here, offering LESS choice (with less costs of storage/smaller store size) thereby offering more competitive prices, appears to be the way forward. Isn’t Tesco slashing the number of new stores planned and selling off land as a result of the less choice model? How many different cans of baked beans are there, 20 or more? Great ‘choice’ but a waste of space commercially.

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WetAugust · 08/08/2014 19:51

Claig

On 28 Jun you wrote:

I think things are only likely to get worse. The puppets may lead Europe into a confrontation with Russia, .....

How prescient.

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claig · 08/08/2014 21:06

'These vainglorious fools will march us into another inferno'

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2714462/PETER-HITCHENS-These-vainglorious-fools-march-inferno.html#ixzz39pgWEdo1

The metropiltan elite don't like Peter Hitchens because he is independent, unlike them. They don't like Farage because he is independnt, unlike them, they don't like the United Kingdom Independence Party because it is independent, unlike them.

Everybodty knows the metropolitan elite are puppets and that is why they will lead us into a war to try and save their banker masters. It is sad, it is tragic, but that is our fate, ruled by puppets who oppose anyone who is independent.

They are goading Russia and eventuallty Russia will have to react and then we will end up in the inferno that Peter Hitchens mentions, just to help save the bankers and their puppets.

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claig · 08/08/2014 21:13

Farage said "the E has blood on its hands over Ukraine" and the puppets were shocked at his boldness an said he was being "outrageous". He was right of course, but they mocked him and they rule us, so what will be will be, c'est la vie, tant pis and in the year of the anniversary of WW1 on top of it all.

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Isitmebut · 11/08/2014 15:12

Maybe you had to live through the 'Cold War' with the old U.S.S.R and Russians invasions into countries when coming 'off message' - and felt the relief when Russian President Gorbachev, glasnost and the fall of the Berlin Wall came about - ending the Cold War and potential nuclear war.

Putin is old school ex KGB who regrets Russia's 'downsizing' and who is anyone in the UK, not on/near the borders of Russia, to say Putin is not a creeping threat to the EU, as Putin tries to 'reform' the parts of the USSR as it was, or add any new country names to the portfolio.

Russia via their huge oil and gas, similar to Germany, has the ability to economically control countries rather than march into them, but do not underestimate their willingness to 'relive' other countries of their sovereignty the 'old way'. Give them and inch.........and they'll take a NATO threatening mile.

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IndridCold · 11/08/2014 16:24

Putin cannot carry on as he is for long though. With economic sanctions against Russia really being tightened, he simply cannot afford to stop supplying oil and gas to outside countries for long.
There is a also a glut of liquid natural gas at the moment, and Europe has been building up capacity for the winter.

He has his new gas deal with China, but at a price that barely covers Russia' s production costs. In addition, China is increasingly competing with Russia in supplying oil and gas to Far Eastern markets. There are also various disputed eastern territories that China have had their eye on for some time.

Putin is so obssessed with trying to scare Europe, he doesn't seem to realise the threat to him from the East is much more serious. Things can still get nasty in the meantime, though.

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Isitmebut · 15/08/2014 00:06

STILL OUT – me starting to think even IF EU reformed.

The Euro Area GDP figures came out today, and although there will be some Russian/Ukrain economic influence, it underlines my earlier point of the obvious need for a reformed and COMPETIVE EU otherwise the ability for any individual country to either set or float their own currency (and sometimes interest rates) during different times through an economic cycle.

Germany is Germany (stating the obvious) but it is interesting that some of that were FORCED into domestic reforms and improved productivity e.g. Spain IS now showing decent growth, but those like triple recession since 2007 Italy, and France, who have put off reducing their deficit and keep the same old uncompetitive ways e.g. employment laws that scared off businesses taking a risk hiring, are continuing to suffer.

“Eurozone growth flatlines in second quarter”
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-28783850

“Growth in the eurozone as a whole flatlined in the second quarter, according to official estimates released on Thursday.”

“The eurozone saw 0.0% growth compared with the first quarter, according to Eurostat figures.”

“The economic bloc's two largest economies, France and Germany, both performed worse than expected.”

Whereas the UK who long ago reformed employment laws and gives employers flexibility in tough times, together with pro business stimulus measures from 2010 and a deficit reduction plan to take some of the EU fat government out of our cost base – although UK productivity has not yet risen to pre crash levels (ensuring future economic stability) – we are expected to have around a 3.5% annual growth this year, our unemployment level around 6.5% is far better that the 10% approx EU average (and the 10.1% French rate), with our prospects improving.

“UK firms bullish as plans to hire hit 16-year high”
www.cnbc.com/id/101909710

“U.K. companies are set to boost their headcounts in the next three months, with firms in both the manufacturing and services sectors planning to hire new members of staff at the fastest rate in 16 years, a new survey shows.”

The caveat here of course is that the UK CURRENTLY depends so much on the EU for trade, those unreformed buggers bumbling along TALKING about jobs, are likely to take some of the strength out of our economy by year end.

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mrsruffallo · 15/08/2014 00:09

Out. Politically, it's a disaster and I don't want a Federal Europe.

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Spinflight · 15/08/2014 01:56

Out of course.

If we stay in, for whatever reasons, we lose the NHS and welfare state eventually. It is already happening and is inevitable.

Unfortunately the cold hard logic of the free movement of peoples means that those seeking an expensive operation that their home land cannot afford are almost forced to come here. Equally those who rely on in work or out of work state benefits for their existence eventually gravitate to the most generous provider.

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Spinflight · 15/08/2014 03:24

"Europe’s policies make sense only on one assumption: that the goal is to try and undermine and unravel the welfare state.” - Noam Chomsky

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ravenAK · 15/08/2014 03:35

In.

But the arguments for 'out' are fascinating, I must say. Lots of heat, not so much light. Apart from claig, who as ever entertains.

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Isitmebut · 15/08/2014 15:33

ravenAK ..... how much "light" do you need as a one interest rate/currency etc 'fits all' could never have worked with such diverse and different sized economies in THEORY, and at the first major recession PROVED that theory - especially if trying to compete in the global markets with one bureaucratic red taped hand and a leg, tied up behind it.

Funny old world it all worked while ultra low EU interest rates and a booming global economy tail wind, but once that party ended ...oops, can't recover.

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