The EU. In or out?

[PetiteRaleuse]

If there were a snap vote tomorrow. In or out?

[claig]

Or one of the reasons.

[ppplease]

I find it all so confusing. I grew up thinking countries were countries and ever thus, but in fact, a lot of, or most, have been changing borders since the beginning of time it seems.
Only last month did I learn that even Germany has altered borders. And I am older than I should be to learn that.

Perhaps you could start a thread claig on countries changed borders over the last century or two?
I would have thought that that would make for an interesting thread.

[lljkk]

Instead of debating the merits of in or out (which I am frankly sick of).. .I would love to start & read a thread solely about what it would (will?) be like when the UK leaves. How will the UK renegotiate it's trading-with-EU status? What will the terms & costs be? The Euro-skeptics talk about taking control of own borders, but Norway-Switzerland have also signed up for free movement of labour. So what are the ideas about how UK could have free labour to advantage of UK citizens but not allow in the unwanted Riffraff?

I'm too lazy to wade thru all the arguments any more, just concerned to be mentally prepared for practical details.

ContinentalKat said that living in Switzerland & dealing with the EU was a faff. I'd like to hear more about the faff.

[claig]

ppplease, you are right about the borders being very important and having changed. Germany lost territory after the Second World War, and also after the First world War, and other countries lost territory too.

I don't know enough about it all, but agree it would be good if a historian was to go through it all in a thread.

What is happening in Iraq right now could be partially thought to be about borders and the Franco-British Sykes-Picot lines.

It seems to me that usually everything is stable until the real powers decide that borders will be redrawn. That is when wars start as the earth shake just like in an earthquake, as if someone upsets the tectonic plates.

So when crises occur, then you need to understand geopolitics and power plays to understand why they are happenng and who or what caused them or are behind them.

The EU is like an historical Empire. No small country is in charge of it, and a small country loses its sovereignty to it. So if and when the earth shakes, they can do nothing about it and are dragged along with it, to join in whatever the leaders have decided for it.

That is all about sovereignty and independence and that is what most Eurosceptic parties are concerned about, because they know that we are not in Fukuyama's "End of History", and that "those who don't know history, are doomed t repeat it".

I don't know enough about history, and nor do most of the voting public unfortunately.

[claig]

That is why what is happening in Ukraine is so dangerous.

All our leaders are united in condemnation of Russia except for some dissent from Eurosceptic voices such as Farage who said
"the EU has blood on its hands over Ukraine" and Le Pen in France and some other Eurosceptics across Europe, and even some members of mainstream parties, but not their leaderships.

Who is right? And who counts and has the real power to change things and resolve things?

[PetiteRaleuse]

Am also interested in border movement. My corner of France changed hands several times between the 1800s and 1945. The repercussions on every aspect of life here are fascinating.

[claig]

Yes, Alsace-Lorraine. Beautiful place. Changed hands several times.

[PetiteRaleuse]

I read a book recently claig which am happy to send you if you like (it's in French) about that period from villagers' perspectives. Fascinating. But I'd want it back. I reckon even you would be pro-eu after reading it :o

[claig]

I won't be pro EU because although I am against war (which the EU says it has resolved, but which may not be the case in the future), I am also for freedom, liberty and independence, which the EU superstate has reduced.

I think we can have both peace and freedom by being independent, sovereign nations. In fact, freedom depends on self-determination and the right to make and pass and strike down laws.

[unrealhousewife]

If you look at the BBC map of Ukraine there are 3 distinct areas, determined by allegiance to Russia and allegiance to Europe. I wonder if it would be worth considering some kind of division.

It's a bit like a custody battle for a child, but bigger.

It's very sad.

[unrealhousewife]

But back to the OP, In, of course, but can we please sort out immigration by ensuring decent wages and benefits across Europe so we don't all have to migrate.

You should only need to migrate for weather, not for work. It's ridiculous.

Borders don't work.

[ContinentalKat]

lljkk When in Switzerland I worked for a global company with outlets all over the world and frequent movement of people worldwide. Switzerland was officially part of the company's Euro zone, but whereas products, procedures and equipment were approved once for all of Europe, everything had to be retested and re approved for CH because they did not follow European standards.

People would move around all over Europe and progress in their careers, but every move to Switzerland required an enormous amount of paperwork, work permits, residency permits, the company giving guarantees for people's rent etc. etc.

In practice, Switzerland was the curious, odd one out country in the European organisation and practically excluded from people exchange programs on every level because it was too complicated to organise, so that they only ever happened at the very top level of the organisation.

It was frustrating for me to see the isolation the Swiss manoeuvred themselves into. According to the Swiss that was a small price to pay for their independence. I obviously don't agree.

[claig]

But, ContinentalKat, the Swiss are rich per capita and they want to keep it that way because they care about their own people. They don't want to make it easy for international, globalised companies to replace Swiss staff with staff from offices abroad. So they put checks and hurdles in the way of the globalised corporations and make them provide paperwork and guarantee rent payments ec so that the Swiss citizen is not saddled with the bill.

"every move to Switzerland required an enormous amount of paperwork, work permits, residency permits, the company giving guarantees for people's rent etc. etc."

The Swiss do not believe in a free-for-all, open border, corporate, globalised paradise. They believe in protecting Swiss workers.

And one of the reasons why is the unique, fantastic real democracy they have, and which we don't have, which includes referenda. The Swiss make sure that the people decide, not the puppets and elites at the beck and call of business.

[PetiteRaleuse]

Quite. But I agree the Swiss have created a rod for their own back. They are an island, and incresingly mistrusted economically.

[claig]

'They are an island, and incresingly mistrusted economically.'

The big boys, the bankers and corporates are squeezing them and sometimes fining them in order to get their way. The Swiss probably have bankers just like ours and even puppets just like ours, but because of their unique democracy they have so far not gained the upper hand. The Swiss people are still in charge.

[PetiteRaleuse]

I disagree. The people who invest in Switzerland are very much in charge of that country.

[unrealhousewife]

The population of Switzerland is 8 million, easily manageable.

[claig]

"The people who invest in Switzerland are very much in charge of that country."

ContinentalKat worked for a global company with offices all over teh world and movement of staff between all offices, but her company seems to have been frustrated by Swiss measures to control what happens in their country and who can work there and gain residency etc etc.

Global comapnaies would like a hire and fire, zero hour contract, free movement, open border style system which our leaders provide here, but they can't get that in Switzerland, because of rule by the people through their democracy.

[claig]

Unemployment Rate in Switzerland decreased to 3 percent in May of 2014 from 3.20 percent in April of 2014

The Swiss have the 4th highest GDP per capitain the world, we have the 23rd

The Swiss are doing well and they want to keep it that way. The corporations are not able to slash Swiss workers' wages.

[claig]

And the Swiss will never be dragged into confrontation with Russia because they have to go along with the EU hierarchy.

[ContinentalKat]

In defence of the global corporation I worked for: people exchange was not about moving the cheapest workforce around like poor pawns in a zero hour contract game, it was about nurturing talent and development from within the organisation.

The Swiss economy thrives on exploiting loopholes in other countries and willingly "overlooking" which dark cesspits of the world the money they look after comes from.

Their direct democracy is a nice idea, but in reality every canton ends up with different laws, leading to an ever more fractioned society.

[claig]

"As the crisis in the eurozone continues, many Europeans are wondering whether the single currency, and even the European Union (EU) itself, were ever really good ideas.

Some are looking towards Switzerland, which has stayed out of the EU and the euro but maintains close ties with Brussels, as a better example of how to protect the national economy while still enjoying the benefits of Europe's trade markets.

The Swiss continue to enjoy high salaries and a high standard of living and Switzerland's major cities regularly make the top ten list of best places to live.

What's more, Switzerland's welfare and social services remain relatively generous, with little sign of the austerity measures currently being introduced in many EU member states.

But Swiss economists say the picture is not as simple, and certainly not as rosy, as that."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/business-16354048

The Swiss are also suffering the EU economy's downturn because of their exports, but they are still doing relatively better than us.

How does their social mobility compare to ours, so they have as many foodbanks as we have etc?

"it was about nurturing talent and development from within the organisation"

Yes, but Switzerland wants to prioritise nurturing its own talent above the talent of global corporations.

'The Swiss economy thrives on exploiting loopholes in other countries and willingly "overlooking" which dark cesspits of the world the money they look after comes from.'

Yes, but some people claim we do the same with our offshore tax havens and Russian oligarch atracting financial sector.

'but in reality every canton ends up with different laws, leading to an ever more fractioned society.'

Yes, that is local democracy. There are swings and roundabouts on every system, but do they have the riots, unemployment, levels of poverty and lack of social mobility that we have?

[OTheHugeManatee]

Out. It's totally undemocratic and this is not likely to change.

[OTheHugeManatee]

But back to the OP, In, of course, but can we please sort out immigration by ensuring decent wages and benefits across Europe so we don't all have to migrate.

And you propose to do that how? Europe is the only bloc currently not growing following the recession, and this is in large part due to the deflationary policies that have been forced through in response to the eurozone crisis.

You can't just magic high wages into existence without a thriving economy to back them up, and the eurozone is in fact having the exact opposite effect.

[Thefishewife]

Reform if not then out we are a sovereign country

We decided who can or can't come into the uk
Who can have acess to welfare and housing and weather we weigh in pounds or ounces and what bloody fish the fishermen can have ffs

They have not had their books signed off in years the EU should be a club of equal us ,France ,Germany and a few of the Nordic counties instead it's us propping up the tin pot republics with dubious human rights records
It's a bad married were we do all the work earn all the money and get told what to do with no benefit to us