Ukip 'Most Favourably Regarded Party'

[claig]

Is there a quiet revolution going on despite the insults aimed at UKIP and their voters by some people in other parties who refer to good people as nutters, fruitcakes and racists?

How has this happened, how has UKIP become so popular despite the wishes of the great and the good and the TV propaganda of the paid-for media puppets?

I am bafffled and

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/01/18/ukip-most-favourably-regarded_n_4623876.html

Yes, claig, it's a shame the Mail shat all over PR isn't it? It's almost like the elite of millionaires that run it don't want a country where the people's voice is important. How bizarre.

I think the real reason UKIP are dangerous is their fantasy politics; the other parties have to make some vague attempt to cost out their policy promises or think about the practicalities of what they're proposing.
I'm sure a 'Ban Devil Dogs' campaign would be very popular, but almost impossible to enforce. We already went there with the Dangerous Dogs Act (enacted in response to a Daily Mail campaign) which doesn't work especially well.

Someone who tells you what you want to hear, isn't telling you what you need to know. (proverb for the day )

TheHammaconda....Ukip Lords a leaping, excuse me I was unaware, who are they?

Re the roll of a political party, we could be here all day on that, but the views of the people are not always right or realistic for the country i.e. no taxes, no spending cuts, no government debts, no migrants now they're here etc etc.

If we wanted to shout just populist policies, surely we could train the Typhoo Chimps Tea Party for that ? lol

Lords http://www.parliament.uk/biographies/lords/lord-pearson-of-rannoch/3153, http://www.parliament.uk/biographies/lords/lord-stevens-of-ludgate/2227 and de Broke are the UKIP Lords. They've had an MP too, a Conservative that switched, I think he was kicked out of UKIP over a 'disagreement'.

'[Parties] distort the issues that they create. They produce divisions in the electorate which very superficially represent the way in which opinion is in fact distributed... They falsify the perspective of the issues they create... Yet when the last criticisms of party have been made the services they render to a democratic state are inestimable' - Laski

I would agree that the people are not always in the best position to make decisions for the best of the nation which is why we don't have a direct democracy.

I dare say if we had a Typhoo party there'd be less shit flung about :)

Sorry, the top two links don't work.

Lord Pearson and Lord Stevens

Clearly this didn't involve all of the UK - or maybe didn't break down the results. I've lived in Scotland almost all my life, and I've never met a UKIP voter!

TheHammaconda…..please correct me if I’m wrong, but both of your Lords are over 70-years old (not much leaping occurring there), they were never MP’s in the Commons, and one was a moneyed Insurance broker, the other chaired United Newspapers – hardly ‘men of the people’ with any experience in government to brag about - so the Greens have more experience in government, than the 100 Ukip MP’s (I’m being nice) to be elected in 2015.

God help us, as Farage won’t.

Men of the People... Cameron, Osborne, Johnson, Rees Mogg are then?

There are very few ordinary (THOUGH IN REAL LIFE WOULD BE SUCCESSFUL PEOPLE) people in the commons , Incredibly there are probably more ORDINARY people in the Lords than the commons.

You said UKIP don't have any credible politicians. You said UKIP don't have any experience at Westminster. Peers sitting in the HoL are experienced politicians.

Yes, they're getting on a bit but the median age in The Lords is 69 so they're no more or less likely to leap than any other Lords.

They're not my Lords either. If you see my post from 11th Feb you'll see that I'm not a UKIP voter.

TheHammaconda ….so the very ‘type’ Ukip say are in Westminster and they are ‘different’, these two REAL elitist doddery old farts, that have never canvassed the streets as MP’s are now the sum total of their Westminster experience? Marvellous.

I suspect now Ukip are NOW the party of the working class (see below), they won’t be wheeled out too often.

As for your voting pattern, it seems many here as strong views but say they don’t vote for the party they argue for e.g.ttosca, may I ask YOUR tribal colour, so I don’t make the same mistake again?

Ironmaiden999 ….”Ukip is now the new party of the working class”, ooooo-k, and next year, what will it be?

As an indication of your class leanings, what was in the Ukip 2010 General Election manifesto that gave it away; the 31p start/Flat rate income tax/Nics rate, the vouchers for private education, cutting back the public sector by a million or two, where many working classes are employed, or believe they need those numbers?

Within Farage’s master plan, assuming Muslims (even from Syria) are last on the Ukip representation list, which year will one-legged lesbians with tattoos and a parrot on their shoulder get a mention, I know at least three who want to know?

Isitmebut, you may ask but I'm not telling! I, like many, vote differently in different elections. Sometimes tactically, sometimes for the best candidate (whatever their affiliation), sometimes for the party.

I live in Brussels now, I can vote in national elections in the UK but local elections here. For the purposes of the EU elections I'm a Belgian - lucky me :)

' the 31p start/Flat rate income tax/Nics rate, the vouchers for private education, cutting back the public sector by a million or two'

Sounds like Thatcherism, and she won the working class vote down South with those policies.

Here is an article by the Marxist or former Marxist, Martin Durkin.

'Margaret Thatcher: Revolutionary heroine of Britain’s working class'
...

'SHUT your eyes and think of Margaret Thatcher (twin-set, pearls, hand bag, smells nice) and Fidel Castro (combat fatigues, bushy beard, revolver, smells of backy). Which one is the firebrand working-class revolutionary? The answer, of course, is Thatcher.'

...

'The shop keepers and builders and taxi drivers of Basildon (formerly Labour) thought she was God’s gift.'

...

'To the horror of the Left, Thatcher, re-defined the class struggle. The socialists argued that “the workers” were being ripped off by “the bosses”. But when workers looked at their wages and saw almost half had gone, they knew it wasn’t the bosses who had taken it. It was the state. “Socialism” was reduced to fleecing hard-working people in the private sector to keep the middle class public sector gravy train rolling.

The new class struggle, as defined by the revolutionary Thatcher, was between Tax Producers (in the productive economy) and Tax Consumers (in the parasitic public sector). The regions that voted Labour were dominated by public sector workers and benefit recipients (they wanted to keep the tap on). The regions that voted for Thatcher were populated by the suckers who footed the bill (and rather resented it).

All the talk today of “austerity” would cause Thatcher to boil with rage. “Whose austerity are we talking about?” she would thunder. “Theirs or ours?” (to paraphrase Trotsky). Less public spending means a lighter burden on the productive economy. She knew it. The good people of Basildon knew it . Perhaps someone should tell George Osborne."

www.cityam.com/article/margaret-thatcher-revolutionary-heroine-britain-s-working-class

Farage is an admirer of Thatcher and has rightly said that a young Margaret Thatcher be more likely to join UKIP than today's Conservative Party.

No wonder half of the Tory Party's members have torn up their membership cards in disgust.

Thatcher was no 'moderniser' and nor is Farage.

Isitbutme, are you a Thatcherite Conservative or one of what they call 'modernisers' who have led to the decline of the Tory Party and the betrayal of Thatcher's legacy?

If Scotland does go indepenent, pundits say that it may be the end of Labour victories in the rest of the UK. But I think they are wrong. Labour will hold onto its core vote and will probably take a centre ground and gain LibDem votes. The real battle will then be between UKIP and the Tory Party and there will only be one winner. Farage will beat the Bullingdon Club.

Up to now, the good people of Basildon had to vote for the Bullingdon Club to stop New Labour taking their wages in taxes as Thatcher rightly said. But now the the good people of Basildon will have a choice to vote for the people's party, for people like them rather than the silver-spooned, silver-tongued 'modernisers' from Eton and the Bullingdon Club.

There is no turning back. Politics has changed and the flood could sink the Tory Party along with its 'bird sanctuary' and rooftop wind turbines.

The 'modernisers' believe in what they call 'climate change'. Well they are partially right. The political climate has changed, and just as with the dinosaurs, they are on the way out.

Claig…Thatcher won the General election in 1979 as the economy was a basket case for historic reasons I’ve mentioned several times now – and to my knowledge she never campaigned on cutting the (then) highly qualified civil service. But as trying to balance the UK’s books and keeping the State lean to save taxpayers money IS, I believe I’m right she DID say ‘what are we doing with 526,000 civil servants, that we can’t do with 500,00’. See the difference in Ukip numbers/percentage cut, how extreme right-wing was 1-2 million out of over 6 million??

Next, the lowest rate of tax in 1979 was above 31p and over time the Conservative cut it substantially, the Ukip HIKING up the basic rate to 31% is not pro working class, more for rich fat right wing pasties Farage used to work with and backs Ukip, agreed?

Next, a Marxist quote, so many words, but like ttosca, why would you quote any Marxist/Socialist view of Thatcher as objective or historically accurate and expect to get a debate? But I believe the Public Sector has already lost a huge amount of ‘non jobs’, in the hundreds of thousands over the past 4-years, but now has over 1.4 million new private sector jobs – which under Balls, was to be the other way around.

As for Osbourne, why don’t you check what he has already done to stimulate business, reduce taxes for the poorest and the supposed austerity level of cuts, which has mainly been no REAL (inflation adjusted) increases in spending. You don’t follow policies, so keep spouting off inaccuracies in what Osbourne has and has not done – concentrating on silly micro issues and ignorantly saying Conservative modernisers have changed Thatchers legacy is laughable, from a sad Ukip party trying to steal votes, rather than win them with policies.

Whether Conservative Members have died or disillusioned with politics like everyone else, it matters not a jot to the seats in parliament, why aren’t you getting that – as what is the option in the voting booth for ex-Tory members, not Labour, Lib Dems or a policy less Ukip, which as in 2010 WILL dilute Tory votes and THIS time let Labour form the next government. Do you REALLY think real Conservatives will risk that in 2015? lol

See the last post on the ‘EU Elections 2014…’ thread to see the policies back in the 1980’s that put the Great back into Britain, then look at Osbournes policies everyone said would not work, and there is little difference really, adjusting for economic decline variables, 1979 versus 2010 e.g. 20% price & wage inflation/salary rises in 1979, under 5% in 2010. Thatcher had a letter from economists saying her attempts to cure the economy was doomed, as did Osbourne, with the BoE predicting 3.4%, who was right back then and now?

That is what you call an economic pedigree, it usually trumps silly boys name calling, there is nothing too wrong being an educated toff doing what is right for the country and getting results, rather than pretending to represent the ‘working class’, and either stiffing them in Labour’s case, or flip flopping policies and boring them to death, like Ukip.

As for Ukip ‘tides of change’, the dinosaurs had too small a brain to figure out how to survive, lets see how many little grey cells we see in the Ukip manifesto for Europe in April and the General Election in May 2015 – and lets see WHAT IS DIFFERENT with the Ukip party & policies, rather than hot air over substance

'Whether Conservative Members have died or disillusioned with politics like everyone else, it matters not a jot to the seats in parliament, why aren’t you getting that'

All you care about is seats in parliament?
But the 150,000 odd Tory members who tore their party membership cards up in disgust cared about more important things than that. They cared about principles, not about keeping some MPs in an endless supply of free bath plugs, moats and duck houses.

The people who have been flooded don't care about 'seats in parliament' and nor do the voters. They all care about principles and values, things that Thatcher had in spades, and things that the 'modernisers' don't understand the meaning or significance of.

If the 'modernisers' ignore the people and concentrate on seats in parliament then they are likely to find themselves turfed out by the seat of their pants.

'concentrating on silly micro issues and ignorantly saying Conservative modernisers have changed Thatchers legacy is laughable'

It wasn't so laughable when half the Tory Party's membership left.
What the 'modernisers' don't understand is that 'micro issues' matter to people. It may be a 'micro issue' to the Westminster elite if a river is dredged or not, but to the people it is important. It may be a 'macro issue' to the Westminster elite that a £31 million 'bird sanctuary' is created, but to the people that just shows how out-of-touch they are.

Thatcher understood the 'micro issues', she understood 'household budgets', she understood people. She was not too big and grand for the people. She was one of us. That is why we voted for her. That is why people joined the Conservative Party. But now half of the Tory Party's membership has left since Cameron took over.

If that is a 'micro issue' then Heaven knows what a 'macro issue' is.

Claig….isn’t the irony lost on you that you say you are concerned about Tory micro issues, but spend more time than is healthy for your sanity, pushing a party as ‘different’ that reneges on ALL their 2010 policies, and lies that they can bring us out of the EU?

Furthermore, in reality Ukip has more kicked out ‘nasties’ than the Tories, when they have less politicians and not one parliamentary seat – yet you claim some misguided ‘win’ over Members, how dumb is that?

Re your quote below, prove from a credible source that they tore up their cards at all, never mind about micro issues like gay marriage or the odd windmill, as basically you sound stupid if you can’t.
“But the 150,000 odd Tory members who tore their party membership cards up in disgust cared about more important things than that. They cared about principles, not about keeping some MPs in an endless supply of free bath plugs, moats and duck houses.”

Do you really want to get into an ‘expenses bun fight’ when I can start with Farages claims of £2 million in claims (by 2009) and I can go as far into other dodgy Ukip MEP claims as you shouldn’t dare go. Again, pathetic political rhetoric from a huge ‘glass house’, over policy substance.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/may/24/mps-expenses-ukip-nigel-farage
“The leader of the UK Independence party (Ukip), which wants to lead Britain out of the EU, has taken £2m of taxpayers' money in expenses and allowances as a member of the European Parliament (up to 2009), on top of his £64,000 a year salary.”

“Nigel Farage, who is calling on voters to punish "greedy Labour, Conservative and Lib Dem MPs" at the European elections on 4 June, boasted of his personal expenses haul at a meeting with foreign journalists in London last week.”

Apparently Farage used much of that taxpayers money to fund his party rather than legit claims as an MEP; so not so much duck houses, more like their weird ducks within his party

And what bit of all Thatcher’s core policies that matter to prosperity of this country and are currently being implemented are you missing ON GENERAL ELECTION DAY? If many dissatisfied Conservatives have half a brain, they will realise that being forced into a coalition with a socialist party arguably left of Labour on many ‘touchie feelie’ issues, so some Conservative policies had to change – and blame the party that caused the coalition by around 26,000 votes across 20 key marginal seats, Ukip.

You have told us that you (clearly) don’t need policies to vote for Ukip, well trust me that anyone who bothered to be a Conservative Member in the past, will vote Conservative based on the alternatives, including a hollow of talent and no policy Ukip that FORCED several Lib Dem type policies on Cameron

P.S. Re the wettest winter in over 200 hundred years and dredging, is there any danger of you reading a newspaper and getting anything right, because your ignorance on the Environment Agency policy on the subject made several years ago embarrasses me, never mind you.

Rumour has it when you inherit a bust country from the main party a Ukip vote in 2015 will let back in, you don’t LOOK for stuff to spend money on when having £158 billion in annual deficit bills keeping the country going – you listen to the expert advice of those in charge of rivers and flood plains, until seen to have been wrong

What was Ukip’s policy on dredging in 2010, oh I forgot, even if mentioned in their manifesto Farage has called it “drivel”.

isitmebut: I'm up early and so are you…………are serious when you write 'one legged lesbians with a tattoo, and parrot on their shoulder'' As there are probably not to many people of this description, I'm sure UKIP has nothing to worry about in getting not getting their vote!

Why are you so worried about this seemingly small little party, they only got 950.000 votes in the last election, and probably will get a few more in the next election?
Farage at least is honest by calling his last manifesto 'drivel' if that's what he thinks. The others LibLabCon, write drivel and lies and never admit it!

Oh by the way, UKIP will come first in the EU elections.

' you listen to the expert advice of those in charge of rivers and flood plains, until seen to have been wrong'

'Speaking on the BBC's Andrew Marr programme, Pickles apologised on behalf of the government while continuing to pin blame on the EA. He said: "We made a mistake, there's no doubt about that and we perhaps relied too much on the Environment Agency's advice."

Asked if the prime minister should also apologise, Pickles said: "I'll apologise. I'll apologise unreservedly.

"I am really sorry that we took the advice … we thought we were dealing with experts."

www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/feb/09/eric-pickles-apologises-floods-environment-agency-somerset

The agency’s report said: ‘A number of protected and threatened species are known to be present in the waters of the Lower Thames, including the Depressed River Mussel, which is a UK Biodiversity Action Plan species, and on the IUCN Red List as near-threatened.

‘This poses a constraint on any works to be undertaken within the River Thames itself, especially activities such as dredging.’

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2558087/So-wasnt-Thames-dredged-In-case-rare-mollusc-disturbed-despite-region-described-one-undefended-flood-plains-England.html

Why don't the 'modernisers' have the courage to let Eric Pickles off his chain and go for it? They won't do it, they probably won't sack anyone and they probably won't hold a public inquiry into the mistakes that must have been foreseen by many people and which have caused enormous costs to people and businesses.

You seem to think everything is going swimmingly. Well the rivers are certainly flooding. Pundits are saying that if these floods happen again next year, just months before an election, then Tory chances of victory may be swept away with the flood.

What people want is preparation, not excuses. What they want is action and courage, not windmills. Let Pickles off his chain!

What would Thatcher have said about the "Depressed River Mussel" and the "IUCN Red List" and the "Biodiversity Action Plan" when people's homes and businesses were at any risk?

She would have said what Farage would probably say too.

You can quote facts and figures all you like, but everybody can see that something is wrong in the "state of Denmark" when the "Depressed River Mussel" has such a high priority and when dredging did not have a high enough priority.

Who is overseeing things?
Who regulates the financial regulators on whose watch the banks crashed our economy and who regulates how much is spent on windmills and what priority is given to the "Depressed River Mussel" when dredging has been de-prioritised?

Maybe Pickles could find out if they let him off his chain.

I was about to say Pickles serves as neither use nor ornament, but there must be somewhere he could be stuffed to hold back rising waters. About time the slopey shouldered windbag did something of use.

nonmifairidere, we need people like Pickles to shake things up and ask serious questions. He doesn't follow all the niceties and Eton manners. He is like a bull in a china shop, but sometimes when disasters happen, people like him are necessary in order to get to the bottom of the reasons why.

Oi, claig, leave that River Mussel alone, it's already depressed. You'll push it over the edge with your threats of an unleashed Pickles dredging it's sludgy haven.

claig the only thing Pickles had ever got to the bottom of was a chip bag.

Claig…I know any politician taking responsibility by apologising for ANYTHING on their watch has been alien to the English electorate for many years now, but that is how it should be when politicians take responsibility.

But much of the point of forming all the hundreds of extra Quangos under Labour was to expensively devolve responsibility and think up PC and buzz word ideas were to make themselves look useful and worth 6-figure salaries/pensions at the top.

And rumour has it the coalition have both had to concentrate and have acted on far more pressing policies to ensure the whole UK didn’t get flushed down the Swanee River, whether we had unexpected 250-year high rainful or not.

I know ‘objective’ isn’t in your vocab, but spend a bit more time scanning the press for what HAS been achieved (much of it long overdue) rather than what wasn’t, especially acts of god – and you’ll save a lot of angry bunching of your shorts.

' especially acts of god'

It is no use blaming acts of God or 'climate catastrophe'. It won't wash with the public. Thank God they have belatedly called in the great Dutch engineers to install the best pumping system in the world. But why didn't they do it sooner?

It was the great Dutch engineers who built the protection for the Somerset Levels hundreds of years ago, and it is the great Dutch engineers who are helping us now.

'spend a bit more time scanning the press for what HAS been achieved (much of it long overdue) rather than what wasn’t'

Of course good things have been achieved, but lots of crap has been done too, and apparently it is claimed that Cameron has even said that we should "cut the green crap", but will he follow through?

Several years ago, UKIP got fewer votes than the BNP in some constituencies and now they are above the Tories and competing directly with Labour in some constituencies. Why?

Their policies haven't changed dramatically, they haven't changed their values and what they stand for. The reason is that now the people are listening and it is because they are fed up with the entire political class because they are almost indistinguishable in many ways.

Most of the quangos are headed up by ex New Labour types, the same faces as under Blair. Many of the so-called "tsars" and many of the so-called "charities" are headed up by ex New Labour types, the same faces as under Blair. Nobody criticises anybody except in a pantomime PMQ. Pickles is not allowed off his chain in case he starts to apportion blame and criticise anyone.

The Tory slogan "vote blue, go green" really seems to be "vote blue, get Blair".

People want change, they want people who can make a difference, they want ideologies such as Thatcher's or Bob Crow's; they don't want more of the same, with the same old 'tsars' and the same old windmills and the same old "Depressed River Mussels".

There are huge problems in the country and people want them fixed.

The good work that the Tories have done in fixing some of them and creating a recovering economy may end up being overshadowed by their failures and their lack of courage to "cut the crap" and differentiate themselves from the other parties.

Pickles could do it, but no one has the courage to let him off his chain. The 'modernisers' prefer pussycats to rottweilers like Pickles, and that is why they may end up losing the election.