Ukip 'Most Favourably Regarded Party'

[claig]

Is there a quiet revolution going on despite the insults aimed at UKIP and their voters by some people in other parties who refer to good people as nutters, fruitcakes and racists?

How has this happened, how has UKIP become so popular despite the wishes of the great and the good and the TV propaganda of the paid-for media puppets?

I am bafffled and

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/01/18/ukip-most-favourably-regarded_n_4623876.html

[Squidstirfry]

tiggytape
I agree with what you have said, people aren't permitted to discuss the effects of mass immigration without being branded 'racist' which completely kills involved debate stone dead.

UKIP are the only party who have actually been open and frank about this issue, while all the other parties skirt around it with mumbo-jumbo such as 'it's good for the economy' and 'multiculturalism is great' which we all know is BS.

They also placed a firm emphasis on putting British citizens first, which strikes a chord with those who feel hard done by with the current state of things.

The fact that they also say a whole load of utter rubbish seems to have been overlooked. People are that desperate for change. It's amazing they have won. It's a two fingers to the other lot that's for sure.

[Squidstirfry]

ttosca
your point about UKIP supporting the same neo-liberal economic policies as all the other parties is a good point, as it's our raging capitalist (anti-socialist) system that is at the root of present day social problems.

Voting UKIP can't change this. It's a monumental shame that UKIP was the only alternative for people to go for.

If only labour hadn't turned their back on their founding policies. We desperately need something like the Labour party, but how they were originally not this horrendous mutated version.

[ttosca]

UKIP are the only party who have actually been open and frank about this issue, while all the other parties skirt around it with mumbo-jumbo such as 'it's good for the economy' and 'multiculturalism is great' which we all know is BS.

How sad.

Both are true statements. It's a shame you don't realise how much multiculturalism has contributed to British society. It has always been multicultural.

During the height of the empire, the British invaded and colonised the majority of the planet. This brought in culture in the form of customs, traditions, religions, literature, music, food, art, philosophy, and science. Trading (and slavery, of course) made Britain wealthy.

Without multiculturalism, the British isles would be a small, insignificant island in the North Sea. No more a player in global economic and political scene than Madagascar.

[mrsruffallo]

'Exactly how is UKIP different from the National Front?'

In every way.
You'll find it harder to find similarities. Have a look into it instead of ranting.

[mrsruffallo]

multiculturalism is not the problem. It's the scale of immigration over the last decade.

I didn't vote for UKIP but I feel there are people scaremongering and suggesting the UK is fascist and racist. England is anti fascist but also largely eurosceptic.
Things aren't as black and white as you are painting them.

[ttosca]

squid-

They also placed a firm emphasis on putting British citizens first, which strikes a chord with those who feel hard done by with the current state of things.

First of all, a large percentage of British citizens were recent immigrants - if only one or two generations ago. Britain, historically, has always been a place of large immigration and emigration.

Most 'native' White Christian 'Britons' are immigrants from France, Germany, and other nothern European countries.

Dividing people this way doesn't make any sense.

Squid: I know that you were just pointing out the thought processes that went on. This isn't aimed at you. I just wanted to reply to highlight the absurdity of it all.

[ttosca]

In every way.
You'll find it harder to find similarities. Have a look into it instead of ranting.

I have had a look.

Both parties are right-wing populist, proto-fascist parties.

Both parties seek to divert blame for people's economic woes and insecurity about their future on immigrants and immigration, when the real problem is the rise of neo-liberal economic policies in europe.

Both parties are supported primarily by White, Christian, older european men.

Both parties have councillors who make racist and bigoted statements towards people of different colour, nationality, or sexuality.

Both parties are dangerous insofar as, if they were ever to gain power, there would most likely be a surge in violence towards immigrants and minorities, as the establishment legitimises persecution towards these people deemed 'the other'.

[mrsruffallo]

There are non white people who are concerned about mass immigration, and who, I am sure, voted for UKIP. I didn't vote for them but your myopic reaction is typical of the problem in having any kind of debate.

Nigel Farage has said he would never share a platform with a fascist party.

People are concerned about the scale of immigration. Where is the debate about that?
Screaming racist and fascist just makes the problem worse. You are also trivialising the horror of fascism by bandying it about to make a political point.

[mrsruffallo]

'Both parties are supported primarily by White, Christian, older european men.'

Aren't all the parties?

[snoofle]

But the public doesn't even know what most of their policies are and it doesn't really care as long as they are different from the policies of the puppets.

I think that that is it in essence.

Which is dangerous. Hopefully the other parties will now change.

Not sure that they are going to though.

Cameron say that he gets it, but I dont think that he fully gets it.
He still thinks for intance that if he amends Europe, or whatever he said or meant about what he wants to do before a supposed referendum, that that will be enough.
I doubt it.
I doubt it a lot.

[snoofle]

True, still no debate about mass immigration.

I dont want any more any colour, including white.
I think that 79 million or whatever it is [I dont think any party knows accurately anymore] is enough. Probably more than enough.

[ttosca]

Aren't all the parties?

The 'gender gap' for the three main parties is not that large:

www.britishpollingcouncil.org/pdf/nick-moon.pdf

Compared with UKIP, whereby the large majority of voters are conservative older males:

d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/r1b80k12tw/UKIP-profile-Feb-2013.pdf

---

Though I will grant you that there is a large gap in representation in politics of people who are not older white males.

[ttosca]

There are non white people who are concerned about mass immigration, and who, I am sure, voted for UKIP.

Non-white people tend to be immigrants themselves. Non-white UKIP voters are a small minority.

In fact, most English people are immigrants, it's just a matter of how far back you want to go, which is why the whole debate is stupid.

I didn't vote for them but your myopic reaction is typical of the problem in having any kind of debate.

It's myopic to vote for fascists out of reaction to current situation. History should have taught us that lesson.

[mrsruffallo]

'Compared with UKIP, whereby the large majority of voters are conservative older males'

That doesn't seem to be the case in this election does it?

I am a bit shocked that you would regard all non white people as 'immigrants'. Even if they are second or third generation? Even if they would describe themselves as British? Even if they are concerned about the rapid, unequaled changes in the population? That's divisive, and nasty.

What are your views?? How would you control immigration? Or would you not? Genuinely interested.

[mrsruffallo]

Most people wouldn't agree with you that they are fascist. It's your opinion, obviously not shared by everyone, Britain is not a fascist country.

[ttosca]

I don't view all non-white people as 'immigrants'. I have a problem with the terms 'white' and 'immigrant' anyway.

Nobody is 'white'. White simply refers to skin colour, and people born in the same country have different skin colours. Different people on the same continent have widely varying skin colours and tones. We're all a spectrum of skin colour.

There is no biological category of 'white'.

Secondly, we are also all immigrants. The 'British' are composed of Ango-Saxon and Normal immigrants. We are all emigrants from Africa. There are many British citizens who are both non-white and who immigrated two or more generations ago.

What counts as an 'immigrant'? A recent immigrant? Why should new immigrants not be allowed the opportunity previous immigrants had?

[ttosca]

Most people wouldn't agree with you that they are fascist. It's your opinion, obviously not shared by everyone, Britain is not a fascist country.

UKIP doesn't represent Britain. They have a small number of local councils and no Parliamentary seats.

Even if we had proportional representation in the national elections, they would still probably only gain a tiny number of seats in Parliament.

Secondly, UKIP are fascist.

I agree that Britain generally doesn't support facists parties, and the majority of the public don't support UKIP.

Those who do support UKIP seem to mostly be voting for them as a protest vote - to give the mainstream parties a bloody nose. I agree that perhaps the majority of UKIP voters themselves aren't racist. However, they are voting for a racist party.

[ttosca]

Ango-Saxon and Normal immigrants.

'Norman' ;)

[mrsruffallo]

you said that non white people tend to be immigrants. That's all I need to know.about where you are coking from. I ask you again, what would your policy be to control immigration? which party resonates with you?
UKIp arent fascist

[BoneyBackJefferson]

ttosca

Yes, it's called debate and argument.

debate is when you give reasons that you justify.

"but I am telling you that you need to improve your reading comprehension skills."

belittling someone is not debating, but it is the same level of skill that you have shown so far on the thread.

[ttosca]

you said that non white people tend to be immigrants. That's all I need to know.about where you are coking from.

Yes, people self-identify as 'white' and 'non-white'. That doesn't mean that it is a biological category.

I ask you again, what would your policy be to control immigration? which party resonates with you?

We already have immigration controls. For the most part, if therre is going to be free movement of Capital, then there must be free movement of labour. If you have the former without the latter, you increase poverty, inequality, and political strife, while decreasing opportunities.

UKIp arent fascist

UKIP are fascist.

[ttosca]

"but I am telling you that you need to improve your reading comprehension skills."

I said this because you tried to tell me what I was saying, which was incorrect.

You either deliberately misunderstood me or didn't understand. Stating an opinion is not 'telling people how to vote' in the sense that you mean.

I have no control over how anyone here votes. Saying that voting UKIP isn't a protest vote is a perfectly legitimate thing to say.

[ttosca]

First Thoughts on the EU elections

By Prue Plumridge

The UKIP campaigned on an anti-europe ticket.

My question is:

If they are anti-europe why have they not declared their position on the Transatlantic Trade Investment Partnership currently being negotiated behind closed doors?

They have been surprisingly quiet on the issue. Now why could this be? It would have been a powerful weapon in their campaign against the EU.

Let’s remember that Nigel Farage’s great hero is Thatcher.

Her pursuit of the neoliberal ideologies of deregulation, privatisation and trade liberalisation have left behind a destructive legacy which we are now more than ever reaping the consequences of. Time will prove (I am certain) Farage’s hypocrisy and deception.

We should be clear that the UKIP are libertarians who believe in free market economics and this is the economic model currently being promoted by an unelected, undemocratic cabal of EU commissioners who are negotiating a trade deal with the US that will favour globalisation and the continuing ascendancy and undemocratic power of the big corporations.

Clearly there is a dissonance between what Ukip supporters believe the party stands for and reality.

Whether they are in denial or their support is a protest against the established parties it matters not. There will be tears before bed-time if we continue to think of this party as a group of fruitcakes or loonies or purely a focus for protest. They are cleverly dissimulating their real agenda and the next few months will be interesting as surely they will have to nail their colours to the wall.

It may seem to some that I am expressing anti-EU sentiment. I hasten to add that I am not. I believe that our future lies within the EU. Not the current austerity imposing neoliberal juggernaut which is bringing Europe to its knees but a properly democratic EU which is socially just, acts for the benefit of its citizens and ultimately remembers its history.

I wrote an article, in May last year, for Think Left. ( think-left.org/2013/05/04/on-fascism-and-facts-ukip-the-strategic-adversary/). A year on I stand by it. The rise of the right throughout Europe is, whether we like it or not, an articulation of the fear being expressed by its citizens over continuing uncertainty and fear for the future. Citizens, however have not woken up yet, to the fact that the Right including UKIP are only offering more of the same.

The Left need now to rise to the challenge and show there is another fairer and more socially just way.

think-left.org/2014/05/26/first-thoughts-on-the-eu-elections/

[BoneyBackJefferson]

ttosca

You are telling people not to vote UKIP because a/ they are racist and b/ because they are fascists.

You are also saying that voting UKIP is not a protest vote.

You haven't (as far as I can tell) backed any of these points up with any facts based on policies or manifesto.

Most of what is being posted is media spin.